click tracking
Jump to content
Tom

TTC Chapter 10

Recommended Posts

10

Carrying body and soul, can you become like a new born babe?

Ever supple and yielding, but with a firm grip on life.

Purifying the Primal Vision, can you be without stain?

Loving all things, can you rule without cleverness?

Can you be like Heaven and play the role of the Woman?

Understanding and being open to all things,

are you able to do nothing and follow the flow?

Giving birth and nourishing,

bearing, yet not possessing,

working, yet not taking credit,

leading ,but not dominating.

For this is Primal Virtue.

 

Lot's in this one, any thoughts?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This seems to be about letting go of control, accepting and yielding. Surrendering and letting things flow through. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

He talks about woman too much, it is unbalanced.

If you are to follow, and follow, and follow ... then why bother ... just let life do everything.

If your only job is to do nothing because something else knows everything better than you ... then just let life do everything, and go back to sleep.

There is something not right about all of this, which may be why Laozi failed and abandoned his society.

His understanding may have beautiful elements, but there are things it does not understand.

At the level of evolution that humans find themselves, it seems nobody has the whole understanding, everyone has just half.  

Whether it is politically, the right wing and the left wing, or the east and the west ... here on Earth nobody has the whole thing together.

You cannot have truth based on just Yin, nor on Yang.

Nor on just the individual, nor on just the universal.

Nor on just Purusha, nor on just Prakriti.

Edited by rideforever
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe we should start with this first part.

 

Carrying body and soul, can you become like a new born babe?

Ever supple and yielding, but with a firm grip on life.

Purifying the Primal Vision, can you be without stain?

Loving all things, can you rule without cleverness?

 

Any thought on this section?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gia Fu Feng's is easier for me to understand:

Carrying body and soul and embracing the one, Can you avoid separation?
Attending fully and becoming supple, Can you be as a newborn babe?
Washing and cleansing the primal vision, Can you be without stain?
Loving all men and ruling the country, Can you be without cleverness?

 

The contrast of opposites is clearer here.

Together, separation, Fullness and newborness.

 

Washing and cleansing ... as you are soiled, then return, each time returning more fully.  Here I feel what he indicates is a kind of posture taking on a role of being the pure one ... but would be better is working with life's conflict and resolutions leading to learning and finally clarity ... purification through honest engagement with remembrance of self, working with the difficulties of life without a posture at all, just honest work, honest confrontation, honest meeting, honest learning.

 

Loving all men ... personally I find words like "loving and compassion" to be unreliable as people often use them to turn a blind eye and not act  ... however in order to engage honestly you have to attempt to see the truth and react if something is not right.  Reacting when something is not right is to not be clever.

From a Taoist perspective the rightness of things is felt energetically, whether yin and yang is balanced in a situation and adjusting that balance if needed.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very cool stuff.

 

Here is my take on the first part. I will use the version you posted rideforever.

 

Quote

Carrying body and soul and embracing the one, Can you avoid separation?

 

The body is local mind, the soul is Universal Mind. When you have realized they are one and the same you are embracing the One. The question can you avoid separation..He is telling us how not to drop back down in the next parts.


 

Quote

Attending fully and becoming supple, Can you be as a newborn babe?


Remembering the previous chapters about water, going with the flow and not fighting what is happening. A newborn babe is always in the present moment.

 

Quote

Washing and cleansing the primal vision, Can you be without stain?

 

This part is very interesting. 

One will take on, support or get hit with others issues and fears. He is saying they will liberate from you, wash and clean but can you do it without getting caught up?
 

Quote

Loving all men and ruling the country, Can you be without cleverness?

 

As an example of not getting caught up in ego he is advising you to stay humble.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion, it is going to be a very limited conversation if ... line 1 means oneness, line 2 means oneness, line 3 means oneness, line 4 means oneness.  Such a conversation does not suit me, and I don't believe reflects the ttc which is a Chinese text.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rideforever said:

In my opinion, it is going to be a very limited conversation if ... line 1 means oneness, line 2 means oneness, line 3 means oneness, line 4 means oneness.  Such a conversation does not suit me, and I don't believe reflects the ttc which is a Chinese text.

 

I am not sure why the citizenship matters.

 

The TTC is a spiritual document not a moral code. He is providing deep insights about many aspects of it is my interpretation. You are free to post your own views.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoyed both of your interpretations. 
 

TTC, in my view has no correct or incorrect interpretation. To box it in is the opposite of all the book is about. Merely it has many ways of imparting it’s wisdom... a gift that keeps on giving. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moving on the the second part.

 

Can you be like Heaven and play the role of the Woman?

Understanding and being open to all things,

are you able to do nothing and follow the flow?

Giving birth and nourishing,

bearing, yet not possessing,

working, yet not taking credit,

leading ,but not dominating.

For this is Primal Virtue.

 

Any thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Tom said:

Moving on the the second part.

 

Can you be like Heaven and play the role of the Woman?

Understanding and being open to all things,

are you able to do nothing and follow the flow?

Giving birth and nourishing,

bearing, yet not possessing,

working, yet not taking credit,

leading ,but not dominating.

For this is Primal Virtue.

 

Any thoughts?

For me this is a reminder of the ultimate love. As a mother, i translate it as a mothers unconditional love. The daily work is something you do naturally and willingly hoping for the best for your child/family but without an agenda.  Only difference here being to extend that love and selfless work to the world. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Tom said:

Can you be like Heaven and play the role of the Woman?

Understanding and being open to all things,

are you able to do nothing and follow the flow?

Giving birth and nourishing,

bearing, yet not possessing,

working, yet not taking credit,

leading ,but not dominating.

For this is Primal Virtue.

The words are nice to hear, but if it's okay I may disagree somewhat.

"Can you?", the answer is no I cannot.  So what happens now ?

The text doesn't show a route to becoming ... like this.

A mother is certainly not open "to all things", my mother took a tub of black shoepolish out of my mouth that I liked to eat and was furious with me when I cut the arms of her fur coat off.  She is not open "to all things" ... not at all ... she knows what is good and she acts.  Holding is only one part of motherhood.
A person who really can bear but not posses, really lead and not just like a politician, and then also not to dominate ... this is a rare person, very rare.  How does one become like that ?  Well I think the answer by getting your hands dirty, and for a very long time, and in many environments, whilst always trying to learn.  A great deal of experience is required to be able to manifest such things on a human level, to fit the light into this form and this low world, and this coarse matter ... that is like trying to squeeze and elephant through a clarinet.  Takes some doing !!!

It is as easy to surrender as it is to be suckled from the breast, but at some point one has to become fully grown and participate.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Tom said:

Moving on the the second part.

 

Can you be like Heaven and play the role of the Woman?

Understanding and being open to all things,

are you able to do nothing and follow the flow?

Giving birth and nourishing,

bearing, yet not possessing,

working, yet not taking credit,

leading ,but not dominating.

For this is Primal Virtue.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks everyone for your input so far.  :)

Here is my take.

Quote

Can you be like Heaven and play the role of the Woman?

Understanding and being open to all things,

are you able to do nothing and follow the flow?

 

Remember there are two aspects, the male and the female. Heaven and Woman is referring to the spiritual female aspect. The female is the energy of the two which is all things.

As the female aspect can you take it all in, issues, fears the arising and falling of everything without interfering? Are you able to just let it all be and do what the Universe needs/follow the flow instead of doing what you think needs doing.

Quote

Giving birth and nourishing,

bearing, yet not possessing,

working, yet not taking credit,

leading ,but not dominating.

For this is Primal Virtue.

 

The female aspect gives birth to everything.

As everything it does not possess or control it.

You do not desire credit/ego for all that you are.

Leading/guiding/doing what the universe needs but not controlling which is ego.

That is Primal Virtue.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is Jeff's take for debate :)

Quote
Quote

 

Carrying body and soul, can you become like a new born babe?

Ever supple and yielding, but with a firm grip on life.

Purifying the Primal Vision, can you be without stain?

Loving all things, can you rule without cleverness?

Can you be like Heaven and play the role of the Woman?

Understanding and being open to all things,

are you able to do nothing and follow the flow?

Giving birth and nourishing,

bearing, yet not possessing,

working, yet not taking credit,

leading ,but not dominating.

For this is Primal Virtue.

 

 

Chapter 10 is a very deep and interesting one for me. It hits me on many higher level spiritual issues/aspects that I personally deal with...

 

The key is the integration of the three layers of existence; body, soul and "all" (or the one).

Once this is realized, can you avoid getting caught up in one of the layers,

and notice the newness of it all (like a newborn baby).

While in this primordial state, you can easily clear all issues and fears.

And with the power of this clarity, can you treat all equally and with no attachment?

When you have realized and can share with others (open gates of heaven),

can you be fully open and supportive ("role of a woman")? 

Fully realized and sharing, are you able to let go wanting to teach and lead?

Giving access and nourishing, but not worrying about recognition and taking credit?

Leading and showing, while no one ever really notices, this is the highest virtue.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Tom said:

And with the power of this clarity, can you treat all equally and with no attachment?

 

The best is treating people as they need to be treated, if there is a bad one then he is admonished, if there is a good one then he is promoted; that is treating people equally with no attachment.  That is real motherhood.  Those enlightened beings who are like this become unrecognizable from anyone else, which is a Taoist idea.

 

In my opinion, spiritual groups often attract those who are too cowardly to get their hands dirty and takes responsibility, and who instead use spiritual statements to justify not doing anything useful, which I don't like.

 

My view of the path is to achieve the best at all levels.  It is great to reach the source, but it doesn't mean you cannot dance or have sex.  It does not mean you have to live in the mountains repressing all aspects of human life.  It doesn't mean you have to be special or be a teacher.  There are a great many things that are available at all levels where you can give your best to, learn to play the flute, it takes years and great skill and discrimnation, involving cultivating whole new faculties.  For me this is life well lived at all levels.

Edited by rideforever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

The best is treating people as they need to be treated, if there is a bad one then he is admonished, if there is a good one then he is promoted; that is treating people equally with no attachment.  That is real motherhood.  Those enlightened beings who are like this become unrecognizable from anyone else, which is a Taoist idea.

 

In my opinion, spiritual groups often attract those who are too cowardly to get their hands dirty and takes responsibility, and who instead use spiritual statements to justify not doing anything useful, which I don't like.

 

What is good or bad is dependent on ones view.

 

Hurting others can be viewed as good. Selling a good amount of drugs can be viewed as good. Some view killing a daughter for having sex before marriage as a good thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tom said:

Hurting others can be viewed as good. Selling a good amount of drugs can be viewed as good. Some view killing a daughter for having sex before marriage as a good thing.

 

If by this you mean that actions cannot be judged, then I do not agree; perhaps we covered this before and have a difference of view on the subject.

But it takes experience and skill to learn to judge things, to be a good school teacher takes skill and experience, and parents learn with several children how to be good parents, and this has tremendous value.
Of course it is easier to never make effort, but isn't that a waste of one's potential whilst we are here?

Someone might say "I just killed and I think it's okay".  But looking deeper we see psychological damage, and we can understand the cause.

There is a story about Buddha meeting a killer called Aṅgulimāla and transforming him so that he was not a killer.

Edited by rideforever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I watched a documentary about satanist yesterday.

The point the satanist church in America tried to make with their actions was to challenge the main religion (christianity) and it's beliefs.

Like saying "abortion is ok" with dressing up as babies and going in front of the christians who were yelling that abortion is bad.

The christians were offended, hurt, scared. All of these emotions that we consider bad. But was it a bad thing? In my judgement, no. But some other person might say yes.

Tell me, are *you* the only one in the world who has the right knowledge of what is good and bad?

Is hurting someone (like a christian trying to ban abortion) a bad thing even if it's for something you think is a good cause? (More a rethorical questoin trying to underline my point.)

Edited by Tuesday

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Tuesday said:

christians

Yes.  Let's be honest when you switch the TV on today what do you see .... you see exactly what you are saying Tuesday, moral relativism, you have just repeated correctly the current programming in the society.  So, let's not pretend that repeating what we are taught is an achievement, it is easy to do.  And if you repeat the dominant ideology you will have lots of friends.

 

The Taoists like Laozi and Chuangtzu have very very fine discrimination.  Like when Chuangtzu is "Cutting Up and Ox", he talks about how a man with great sensitivity can use the same butchers knife for years with no wear because he feels the space between the joins and does not snag the knife.  Such experience and skill is amazing.  The Prince in that story, says you have taught me how to live.

Laozi in the TTC is definiing great discriminative powers.   He says that most humans dont have it, they are like straw dogs ... meaningless little things that are burnt up. 

But then there are those who feel the Tao, they are special, almost like a higher species of human being that can discriminate.

 

As for the abortion debate, it's always the same ideas ... nothing new ever !!!

I rarely see anyone talking about anything else.   For instance the murder of human beings in the womb, or how to organise society so that life is valued, or whether doing whatever you like makes a good society, or whether having many partners and children with different people ... is any good, or whether divorce increases childhood pain.   Such different ideas rarely are spoken ... normally it is the same words "it's good" "it's bad" ... like a machine caught in a loop, a machine with different faces.

 

In India they have the concept of people being drunk on sense pleasures, too drunk to see straight, I think that is what moral relativism is, isn't it ?

 

In my opinion I don't see any connection with merging with the source and moral relativism or not having discriminative abilities.

What's the connection?  I don't see one. 

I see a connection of being inexperienced and being unable to judge anything.
 

Why doesn't mankind know of the Source ?  Well, it's because in general people cannot sense the Source, they cannot discriminate it.

For many they can't even eat healthily, so I guess they should start with the basics and when they are ready move higher.

Edited by rideforever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Yes.  Let's be honest when you switch the TV on today what do you see .... you see exactly what you are saying Tuesday, moral relativism, you have just repeated correctly the current programming in the society.  So, let's not pretend that repeating what we are taught is an achievement, it is easy to do.  And if you repeat the dominant ideology you will have lots of friends.

 

The Taoists like Laozi and Chuangtzu have very very fine discrimination.  Like when Chuangtzu is "Cutting Up and Ox", he talks about how a man with great sensitivity can use the same butchers knife for years with no wear because he feels the space between the joins and does not snag the knife.  Such experience and skill is amazing.  The Prince in that story, says you have taught me how to live.

Laozi in the TTC is definiing great discriminative powers.   He says that most humans dont have it, they are like straw dogs ... meaningless little things that are burnt up. 

But then there are those who feel the Tao, they are special, almost like a higher species of human being that can discriminate.

 

As for the abortion debate, it's always the same ideas ... nothing new ever !!!

I rarely see anyone talking about anything else.   For instance the murder of human beings in the womb, or how to organise society so that life is valued, or whether doing whatever you like makes a good society, or whether having many partners and children with different people ... is any good, or whether divorce increases childhood pain.   Such different ideas rarely are spoken ... normally it is the same words "it's good" "it's bad" ... like a machine caught in a loop, a machine with different faces.

 

In India they have the concept of people being drunk on sense pleasures, too drunk to see straight, I think that is what moral relativism is, isn't it ?

 

In my opinion I don't see any connection with merging with the source and moral relativism or not having discriminative abilities.

What's the connection?  I don't see one. 

I see a connection of being inexperienced and being unable to judge anything.
 

Why doesn't mankind know of the Source ?  Well, it's because in general people cannot sense the Source, they cannot discriminate it.

For many they can't even eat healthily, so I guess they should start with the basics and when they are ready move higher.

 

Any thoughts that the TTC is talking about the Source and how to realize it?

 

With Clarity one sees things how they truly are.. not from an ego pov for example. How do you realize such clarity.. be like a new born child..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My point wasn't that abortion is good or bad or whether we should be debating about something more meaningful. It was just that: morale is subjective. Something someone else views as wrong might be viewed by someone else as right. I didn't intend to debate you about our subjective morals.

However we structure our society, however moral we are to your standards it is still based on egoistic description of what is good and bad, until human beings are realized. Until we realize that what our ego thinks as good is just that, ego.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the West there was once artisan traditions for painting where people studied for decades to reach high levels of skill.  Today turn a toilet seat upside down and it's $1m.  When Gore Vidal died the US lost one of the last of an old breed of politician who had great depth.  Today the candidates are very low minded and untrustworthy people.   And it's the same in every category of life.

Skill wisdom intelligence ... are fading from the West, instead the idea that skill wisdom intelligence don't exist is appearing.

It is even the same in western spirituality.   Instead of seeing Jesus Buddha Laozi's words as a great depth and profound discrimination .... a different meaning is interpreted by some  ... which I don't really understand.

If someone is teaching you how to rule a country, how to reach jhanic states, or how to plan seeds ... that is discrimination, what else would be? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

 

31 minutes ago, rideforever said:

It is even the same in western spirituality.   Instead of seeing Jesus Buddha Laozi's words as a great depth and profound discrimination .... a different meaning is interpreted by some  ... which I don't really understand.

What do you mean with "great depth"? To me it sounds like the ultimate spiritual meaning, but you seem to mean something else based on your interpretation of this whole thing.... And what do you mean by profound discrimination?

Edited by Tuesday

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it seems there are different views on the subject, I am just stating mine which is that each teacher is discriminating with great skill, and so I do not follow the idea that spirituality is linked with not discriminating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...