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Tom

Buddha’s and Emptiness

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Conversation with Jeff from another forum.

 

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In a Sufi context God is equivalent to Emptiness. The "light of God" is the "clear light" of manifestation that arises from emptiness.

 

Emptiness is like Void with infinite potential. Consciousness is like a stable bubble in emptiness or the "arising" of that infinite potential of emptiness. 

 

Consciousness or that stable bubble is established by a Buddha. In essence, the Dharmakaya (third or truth body) of a Buddha is that bubble. Consciousness is also sometimes called Buddhamind, kind of like a "base transmission". But, unlike Hindu/Yoga models there is not just one such consciousness. Each "full Buddha" establishes a new Dharmakaya or consciousness bubble, which is why texts like the Lotus sutra talk about Buddhas creating new world systems. 

 

Also, since a Dharmakaya resides directly in emptiness and is beyond "time and space", from a relativistic point of view, once manifest, it is as such a consciousness bubble has always existed.

 

The mandalas of a deity is a "big" mind stream in Buddhamind/consciousness. Consciousness (or ultimate reality) is like nesting dolls. Hence, the mandalas of a deity is high up in the nesting doll framework and as such impacts sentient beings "inside" those higher dolls.

A Buddha and the resulting transmission are "integrated" or you could say that the perceived transmission is the buddhamind that most perceive as the reality we live in. In particular, both the Lankavatara sutra and the Lotus sutra have very interesting and descriptive aspects to the discussion on this point.

 

Do you not see a contradiction to that in regards to this sutta, namely that the Buddha said such did not happen in that He did not remain as a particular being although he could have?

 

Not at all. It goes more to the whether one wants to be a particular character in the "video game" or rather become one with the game itself and be able to upgrade the game or create an entire new video game (as described in the Lotus sutra).

 

An in game full Buddha requires a very advanced version of the game to be able to manifest. In the Lotus sutra this is described as a twin tower (or many jeweled) Buddha. When such a Buddha "grows out of" the existing mind/world system, the "founding Buddha" sort of turns over the keys (or bows down to as described in the Lotus sutra). This is part of the definition of the "one vehicle".

 

Hello Jeff, I get your following concep quoted belowt: 

 

"...It goes more to the whether one wants to be a particular character in the "video game" or rather become one with the game itself and be able to upgrade the game or create an entire new video game (as described in the Lotus sutra)."

 

(space) To which I'd say if the essence of Dharma is already finished and complete the game only appears to change...

 

But again and from my earlier post: "my take from some sources of Buddhism is that is no there continuation of a particular being [or video character as you put it] (along with no reincarnation or maintaining of a particualr being or soul if you will) and [or but] in this case or in this sutta the particular being of the historic Buddha is talking about remaining and maintaining himself and not just as a sort of transmission for a world cycle."

 

"To which I'd say if the essence of Dharma is already finished and complete the game only appears to change."

 

That is because you are more a "Self" or "One with no second" guy. Ultimate emptiness is different and as such, there are can be unlimited numbers of bubbles of "One with no second".

 

Also, as I said above, I do not know of anything in Buddhism that says that there can be no relative "being/soul" that can maintain coherence for a universe cycle. That is essentially the definition of a Taoist "immortal".  

 

In the video game analogy, one usually just transfers their "consciousness/soul" to a light body or they sort of take over/reside as a fixture of the game (which could be something like a mountain, star or even a being like an angel/god).

 

What we are describing is the realization of such a depth in consciousness/reality where one can cross over/ascend beyond the physical form. Such a realization is "beyond" the classic definition of "enlightenment" in most traditions. In Buddhism, there is a big difference between a Buddha and an arhat (enlightened). In mystical Christianity, it is similar with the difference between a "Christ" and the "realization of the soul".

 

Also, it must be remembered that unlike the concept of "cessation" with enlightenment in Hindu type traditions, a Buddha maintains a "vehicle" and as such is still sort of a "distinct" being until it ultimately "lets go" back into ultimate emptiness. A Buddha maintain "cohesion" to help all sentient beings, that is the purpose of the bodhisattva vow.

 

"A Buddha maintain "cohesion" to help all sentient beings, that is the purpose of the bodhisattva vow" That sounds good to me but why do you think the historic Buddha would need prompting to do such? And why is reincarnation in Buddhism not pointing that out instead of saying absolute things like there is no soul?

 

One must remember that sutra is an earlier (or lower) method, hence the text is for a more normal mind level communication of understanding a Buddha. Hence, rather than truly needing the prompting, it is a story communication device to point out the choice (or sacrifice) that Buddha makes in continuing on. The sacrifice is actually "huge".

 

On the no soul point, since I am not Buddhist, it is probably not for me to say. But,...

 

Buddhism as a path/framework is based upon first realizing "clarity of mind". Things like energy stuff are not introduced until clarity of mind is stabilized. If one is holding on to the concept of a "soul" or "self", it becomes very difficult to clearly realize the true clear light of mind. It is basically a clear mind only path at the beginning.

 

As opposed to more energy (tantric) systems like KS, where the approach is to force a similar level of mental clarity with overwhelming energy (through devotion), where one becomes "nothing" in God/Shiva. Both, are first stage (enlightenment) levels where one experiences "quiet mind" or feels like they are "naturally responding" with no thought. In Buddhism, this realization is the first half of the heart sutra, or knowing that form collapses down to and equals void.

 

Each approach has it's own pros and cons, but at the Shiva vs. Ultimate emptiness level they ultimately point to different things.

I may have been somewhat unclear in my meaning in the above statement, as I said "first stage" relative to enlightenment.

Jiva is Siva would more equate to what I would call the second stage in a classic Buddhist framework. This is after one has realized the soul, and is now integrating into all "reality/Siva" and in Buddhism utilizes what is called "completion stage" (tantric-energy) practices. This is the second half of the Heart sutra, void creates and is equal to all form. Realizing ultimate emptiness is knowing both are true and also both are equivalent.

 

At various stages in Jiva is Siva (levels 1-6 in KS) it is possible to realize at a certain level and "assume" the form (or copy) at that level of the universe (or reality).

 

 

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