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Shiva sutras - And the relative approach...

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20 hours ago, Qibrush said:

This last part of what you are saying.

And that normal daily living is exactly the same as the clarity of the highest meditation, and that different states is really just an artificial view from the perspective of "local" self/mind."

can I also say this is residing? Seeing past all the layers or levels and realizing that it is all the same, that self is really just residing in now?

I'll try defining what I mean. Maybe we can find a middle ground or you can tell me what you think and what equivalent there is. When I say light level, I think that's a little hard to define but I mean a deeper level in which there is just knowing and being things. There isn't anything to see or feel, just intent and knowing. I also feel that universal mind and what I mean by light level are similar because at a light level where there is just being, that is also universal mind to me. Meaning that I can realize that me and you are the same or a river outside is the same as me and you. It feels the same, just one continous piece of self. That's what I define as universal mind, being and being with everything naturally. 

 

Here is also my take of the next three. Please tell me your opinions on these.

3.15. bījāvadhānam

Maintain breakless awareness on that supreme energy which is the seed of the universe.

3.16. āsanasthaḥ sukhaṁ hrade nimajjati

Seated in that real posture, he effortlessly dives in the ocean of nectar.

3.17. svamātrānirmāṇamāpādayati

Experiencing that this objective world is the product of his subjective consciousness, he can create anything he desires.

 

I think 3.15 is talking about being naturally aware of the energy of universal mind at all times.

3.16 - Maybe it is talking about being able to go deeper without any real effort, as if you are moving a hand.

3.17 - Now talking about using the energy of the universe to create anything with intent.

Hi Qibrush,

One thing that's nice about Kashmir Shaivism is that its symbolism is very clear and specific once you understand it.

And, side note: several years ago, a good friend of mine gave me a framed, artistic rendering of 3.15, and it's hanging on my office wall, next to my computer monitor - and so: I see "Maintain breakless awareness on that supreme energy which is the seed of the universe." on an ongoing basis, every day.

I would say that "breakless awareness" is the natural, present awareness that is both the result of releasing the conceptual, limited "bubble self" as our identity, as well as the means of, the key and only practice of, Sambhavopaya, the Divine (or Supreme) Means, in Kashmir Shaivism (which is addressed in detail in Section 1 of the Shiva Sutras).

Yet that 3.15 also says "on that supreme energy which is the seed of the universe" - and so - what is that supreme energy? It is the original, breakless, natural awareness which underlies everything else.

It's always right here, but the limited idea-self isn't in conscious touch with it - but it's still the field in which everything occurs - even universal mind, or cosmic consciousness, arises from it. Original breakless awareness is Shiva, and any motion of it, at any level, is Shakti, Energy - which is non-different from Shiva.

It's like Shiva (awareness) is the ocean, and Shakti (consciousness) is the motion of the ocean - whether that motion is the overt motion of surface waves, or the most subtle currents in the ocean's deepest recesses.

When we consciously maintain breakless awareness, there's natural presence, and the natural being-knowing of non-duality in experience - of wholeness. And so, as Jeff said, daily life is not different from meditation - because breakless awareness is another term for the experience of deepest meditation (samadhi), as well.

Essentially, meditation and related practices ultimately come full circle: we engage in practices, and bit by bit, release the limited concept self. Meditation practice becomes deeper and deeper, until it is an experience of pure, breakless awareness - aka samadhi. Then - the "full circle" part - that breakless awareness of samadhi becomes part of daily life as well - because the content of each moment of daily life no longer disturbs it.

And so, 3.15 is basically describing how to maintain, and ultimately experience as permanent, the realization expressed in 3.8, that the waking state is fully "it", too - another facet of Shiva nature. There is no non-Shiva, no non-wholeness - because awareness includes all its content - everything it is aware of, too.

3.16 is saying that breakless awareness is the real asana - the real seat (which is what the Sanskrit word asana means) - and that in maintaining it, every moment is experienced as the "ocean of nectar" - the bliss of experiencing wholeness as our own true nature.

3.17 makes the point that with breakless awareness, it is realized that everything objective arises from the subjective -- the perspective of self (the subjective), or experiencer, determines perception, and how objects are perceived. Because there is no actual separation, awareness-consciousness and all that it experiences are facets of wholeness - and, realizing this, it is then possible to create anything that one desires.

As 1.6 states:

śaktiḥcakrasaṁdhāne viśvasaṁhāraḥ

By establishing and meditating on the wheel of energies the differentiated universe comes to an end.

Or, as stated in another translation - "When the wheel of energies unites, the universe dissolves" - meaning "the universe as an idea of something separate from oneself".

Constricted, egoic semi-consciousness experiences a given moment with the naturally united and completed wheel of energies (Shaktichakra) in a very fragmented manner - which is why any power ego seems to have is so illusory, partial and inconsistent.

In the case of ego, things that are perceived objects - thoughts, emotions, bodily sensations, etc. are confused with "self" - they "feel like me".

Simple, present observation reveals that even thoughts are objects - because there is, obviously, the aspect of experiencing a thought that is aware of that thought - the awareness itself, and the thought it is aware of, are both part of complete experience.

However, essentially everyone has a lifetime of conditioning that causes them to focus on the objects in awareness, and not on the ever-present awareness that is unconditioned by anything it is aware of, that is an inherent aspect of all experience, as well.

That's what practices, observation, etc. are for: to help recondition the human system to the point where natural, breakless awareness, and, therefore, the liberation of experiencing our inherent wholeness, becomes the default state.

Then, knowing that there's no actual separation between inherent awareness and anything in it, it's realized that it is possible to create anything one desires.

Interestingly, though, the commentaries on the Shiva Sutras all give examples of things like "experiencing wholeness", i.e. "communion with the highest Lord" (Shiva), and so on, as examples of what one might desire. That's because, in actual experience, anything else ultimately pales by comparison, and because other desires (for powers, wealth, etc.) are ego driven - and with the ego absent - where would those desires come from?


 

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On 1/25/2017 at 11:40 AM, Qibrush said:

Here is also my take of the next three. Please tell me your opinions on these.

3.15. bījāvadhānam

Maintain breakless awareness on that supreme energy which is the seed of the universe.

3.16. āsanasthaḥ sukhaṁ hrade nimajjati

Seated in that real posture, he effortlessly dives in the ocean of nectar.

3.17. svamātrānirmāṇamāpādayati

Experiencing that this objective world is the product of his subjective consciousness, he can create anything he desires.

I think 3.15 is talking about being naturally aware of the energy of universal mind at all times.

3.16 - Maybe it is talking about being able to go deeper without any real effort, as if you are moving a hand.

3.17 - Now talking about using the energy of the universe to create anything with intent.

While I would agree with much of what Doug said, I thought I would add a little with the "translation service"...

3.15 is basically saying to remain residing (or focused) on what you would call the light (or light level). Universal mind would be the translation of that light into mental representation. Sort of like focusing on the reflection instead.

3.16 is yes about residing in it. Basically, that as you reside in it you get all the stuff and clear out the crap (nectar).

3.17 basically agree with you. When you fully realize/know that outside is same as the inside, you begin to be able to control your environment. KS sages talk about mystical powers being part of realization.

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On 1/26/2017 at 5:07 PM, Jeff said:

While I would agree with much of what Doug said, I thought I would add a little with the "translation service"...

3.15 is basically saying to remain residing (or focused) on what you would call the light (or light level). Universal mind would be the translation of that light into mental representation. Sort of like focusing on the reflection instead.

3.16 is yes about residing in it. Basically, that as you reside in it you get all the stuff and clear out the crap (nectar).

3.17 basically agree with you. When you fully realize/know that outside is same as the inside, you begin to be able to control your environment. KS sages talk about mystical powers being part of realization.

Hi Jeff & All,

Thanks - I agree with what you've said - though am not familiar with your use of the term "nectar" re: 3.16, if you wouldn't mind clarifying that.

Also, re: 3.17 - an important note is that KS references certain yogic / mystical powers as obstacles to liberation - though, of course, they're obstacles only from unrealized / egoic perspective. Since the context of this group of sutras is that of experiencing daily life naturally (without egoic perspective), that warning, found elsewhere (i.e. in the Spandakarikas) doesn't apply here.

In essence, KS teaches that liberation is the natural state, and naturally present when obstructions (egoic perspective and desires) are absent - and that when mystical powers arise, they arise naturally, per that absence of obstruction.

 

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29 minutes ago, Doug said:

Hi Jeff & All,

Thanks - I agree with what you've said - though am not familiar with your use of the term "nectar" re: 3.16, if you wouldn't mind clarifying that.

Also, re: 3.17 - an important note is that KS references certain yogic / mystical powers as obstacles to liberation - though, of course, they're obstacles only from unrealized / egoic perspective. Since the context of this group of sutras is that of experiencing daily life naturally (without egoic perspective), that warning, found elsewhere (i.e. in the Spandakarikas) doesn't apply here.

In essence, KS teaches that liberation is the natural state, and naturally present when obstructions (egoic perspective and desires) are absent - and that when mystical powers arise, they arise naturally, per that absence of obstruction.

 

Doug,

i would agree with what you have said. The term "nectar" is used in the translation. It states "ocean of nectar" and I was just referencing it with shorthand. The nectar would be the primoridally pure universe. Basically, 3.16 is a followup to the description of 3.15.  Saying... residing in the pure energy, one effortlessly can partake (dive in) the unobstructedly viewed universe (ocean of nectar).

Best, Jeff

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3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Doug,

i would agree with what you have said. The term "nectar" is used in the translation. It states "ocean of nectar" and I was just referencing it with shorthand. The nectar would be the primoridally pure universe. Basically, 3.16 is a followup to the description of 3.15.  Saying... residing in the pure energy, one effortlessly can partake (dive in) the unobstructedly viewed universe (ocean of nectar).

Best, Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Thanks - per your phrasing, I thought you were equating nectar with the "crap" (obstructions, presumably) to be cleared out --- which, understandably -- didn't make sense to me. :) Got it, now.

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for this thread. These verses/sutras have been my intro into KS and I’m really enjoying them so far — as well as everyones comments in this section of the forum. Very helpful. 

 

 

Edited by FaXin

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