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Any thoughts as to what Abhinavagupta is referring to as "the game"?

 

"Even as Siva creates the very real game of

breaking himself into parts which suffer transformation, division, extinction

and emptiness, he is nevertheless able to maintain himself free of the game

and intact as Siva, all the while taking on the roles required by the game."

Edited by Tom
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6 hours ago, Tom said:

Any thoughts as to what Abhinavagupta is referring to as "the game"?

 

"Even as Siva creates the very real game of

breaking himself into parts which suffer transformation, division, extinction

and emptiness, he is nevertheless able to maintain himself free of the game

and intact as Siva, all the while taking on the roles required by the game."

It being a game is an intuitive experience. And or it could also be seen becuase of the nature of bliss.

When bliss is always enjoyed it sorta dissolves the fear. Not that there is no fear. But that in fear is joy. Cleaning the lense. With those obstacles removed it can be seen as a game.

Intuitively it is seen as a remembrance of why and how the drama became to be. The remembrance is that we are all one playing things out. It can be seen that the worst of us are the best of us. And we have all played the worst and the best.

The best is the worst and the worst is the best. They are actually all equal. But since we normally see the worst as the worst. The best as the best. In reverse it could be seen as a giving part of us would play out the part that will surely become hated as the drama plays out with the blinders on.

Imo as i have experienced it.

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Im not suggesting somebody becomes to see that perspective and then decides to do harm. Im suggesting that in seeing that one becomes more compassionate to all that is. Or i guess im saying that is what i experienced anyways.

Life(the game) could be seen also as a series of conflicts and forgiveness. Acting out in circles. Until seen through from bliss and silence. Then it is the same but dissolves without so much drama needed to make the circle.

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Thank you running :)

For me what Abhinavagupta is saying is that what people perceive as the world/universe is the game. Siva or one who becomes like Siva realizes it is a game, becomes one with all of the objects that make up the game and at the same time he is beyond the game.

An important part is when he mentions "all the while taking on the roles required by the game."

Any thoughts regarding taking on the roles required by the game?

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On 2/9/2017 at 10:59 PM, Tom said:

Any thoughts regarding taking on the roles required by the game?

I can only interpret that through the lenses of my own experience. The way I live these days is some sort of going where life calls/doing what life asks. I guess that can be seen as 'taking the roles required by the game'. It feels like it, at least.

Sort of like when one doesn't hold on to their idea of themselves much, they are free/available to be whatever life needs them to be at any given time, take on any required role.

life can call one to be/do this or that, and by complying, one takes the role life gave them at that point.

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4 hours ago, voice said:

I can only interpret that through the lenses of my own experience. The way I live these days is some sort of going where life calls/doing what life asks. I guess that can be seen as 'taking the roles required by the game'. It feels like it, at least.

Sort of like when one doesn't hold on to their idea of themselves much, they are free/available to be whatever life needs them to be at any given time, take on any required role.

life can call one to be/do this or that, and by complying, one takes the role life gave them at that point.

Very well said Voice.

That role may be that of a husband or wife a guru or even a Buddha/Christ.

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6 hours ago, Tom said:

That role may be that of a husband or wife a guru or even a Buddha/Christ.

yeah...you see, that's the issue many times. often times people (and usually those walking the 'spiritual path', even more) have a list like that in mind when they think of roles. so when life offers something like the role of the fool at some point, they don't take it, because that's not for them. or the role of the one grieving, they don't take it, they perceive it as something happening to them (might even blame themselves or the practice for not being beyond grief yet). and the list can go on, for all the roles that are being refused/fought-all-the-way-through and that hinders the flow. 

no idea why i am saying this when all i wanted to say was yes. it's not meant to be an argument, it just wanted to be said. to expand on the definition of roles, i guess.

 

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18 hours ago, voice said:

yeah...you see, that's the issue many times. often times people (and usually those walking the 'spiritual path', even more) have a list like that in mind when they think of roles. so when life offers something like the role of the fool at some point, they don't take it, because that's not for them. or the role of the one grieving, they don't take it, they perceive it as something happening to them (might even blame themselves or the practice for not being beyond grief yet). and the list can go on, for all the roles that are being refused/fought-all-the-way-through and that hinders the flow. 

no idea why i am saying this when all i wanted to say was yes. it's not meant to be an argument, it just wanted to be said. to expand on the definition of roles, i guess.

 

If you are fighting over or creating a list or not wanting a role you really are not being and accepting the roles needed by the game. You are still caught up in the game and not above/separate while still taking on the roles. If you are caught up in issues you are still in the local mind and have not become one like Siva.

I was really thinking about how in the Shiva Sutras how it say's one becomes like Siva not ceases into... Once one becomes like Siva that role maybe for you is to stay in a cave or have a few students or help upgrade the game like a Buddha/Christ is more what I was getting at.

.

Edited by Tom
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14 hours ago, Tom said:

If you are fighting over or creating a list or not wanting a role you really are not being and accepting the roles needed by the game. You are still caught up in the game and not above/separate while still taking on the roles. If you are caught up in issues you are still in the local mind and have not become one like Siva.

I was really thinking about how in the Shiva Sutras how it say's one becomes like Siva not ceases into... Once one becomes like Siva that role maybe for you is to stay in a cave or have a few students or help upgrade the game like a Buddha/Christ is more what I was getting at.

.

kinda off topic a bit but wish to share some speculation.

I don't think anybody is accomplishing anything more by the role in the big picture. What i gather is its an energetic happening. If its a role that makes someone around a few people then it will have an effect on them. If its around more it will have an effect on them. If there is emotions involved then the effect will become more dramatic. Cause an emotional experience puts one into the other from more chakras. When thats taken in that way it will transcend. More of that person is absorbed and shown a higher state of consciousness. So there is that aspect. Then if somebody goes into a cave around nobody or very few they will be helping everybody transcend in a broader way.  More evenly distributed due to less contact. 

So i guess i could say then perhaps the role doesnt matter. Except it does imo. It would be more appropiate to have less going on and a simpler way of living. 

Simply because when ones own joy is beyond what the world has to offer. Then why bother so much.

the script and the roles played our outlined from a much different perspective imo. its not something understood much from where we are. Except that it is a game. And there is like catapulting to new heights from its actions of conflict, surrender, and forgiveness. imo

Edited by running
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From pg 100

Wherever Siva is present, the

whole is present. If the body is a structure composed essentially of Siva,

then all that is manifested from Siva, including the entire array of universes,

may be found present in the body.

 

What does everyone think of this statement? Is the Heart and the body one and the same?

Edited by Tom
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4 hours ago, Tom said:

From pg 100

Wherever Siva is present, the

whole is present. If the body is a structure composed essentially of Siva,

then all that is manifested from Siva, including the entire array of universes,

may be found present in the body.

 

What does everyone think of this statement? Is the Heart and the body one and the same?

i dont know what he means by body. i mean is he saying the universe can be experienced as oneself. like perhaps a spiritual body.

i guess if he means physical body perhaps the same can be perceived. since it is the body that is light up with the energetic one.

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Hi running,

The physical body is just energy it is not separate from our consciousness or the Heart as Abhinavagupta describes it. The Heart is not separate from Siva nor is the body. It is all the same thing, so one can find the entire Universe in the palm on ones hand because it is all of the same essence, it is all the same thing.

On another forum a discussion was ongoing regarding the mind vs the body. Some were saying that you can become enlightened but still be a chain smoker, still have additions of the body and that they are separate from the enlightened mind.

Any thoughts?

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On 2/22/2017 at 5:54 AM, Tom said:

Hi running,

The physical body is just energy it is not separate from our consciousness or the Heart as Abhinavagupta describes it. The Heart is not separate from Siva nor is the body. It is all the same thing, so one can find the entire Universe in the palm on ones hand because it is all of the same essence, it is all the same thing.

On another forum a discussion was ongoing regarding the mind vs the body. Some were saying that you can become enlightened but still be a chain smoker, still have additions of the body and that they are separate from the enlightened mind.

Any thoughts?

bliss and silence arent worried about things it seems. the programming of the mind do. so i think that's why lifestyle changes, such as not smoking, being vegetarian, vegan, or perhaps even a belief in a god, be it jesus, a creator, or zeus could help. it all just depends.

i cant speak for others. but in my experience was more like a destruction of everything. whatever i clinged to, life and or spiritual experience took it from me. but not all. and since then i have reaquired many things. none seem to be hindering me. 

so i think it could be for some when the process accelerates it could put you in a boot camp. breaking you down to little bits so the spirit has a home. once that has happend then things go back to normal.

but not normal in that the bliss and silence are whats experienced with everything and more enjoyable overall than the things.

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I see anything, anybody and any body as metaphors of the whole. same thing, expressed over and over, unique every time and yet always the same.

the physical body, the mental body, the energy body,the emotional body,layers and layers of representations of the whole.

from this viewpoint, the answer to 

On 2/21/2017 at 7:10 PM, Tom said:

What does everyone think of this statement? Is the Heart and the body one and the same?

is yes. everything is one and the same. 

something like...seen with bare eyes or at the microscope, a piece of skin is still a piece of skin. even if it looks different and different things within it can be studied and manipulated better at different magnifying rates and with different tools, it's the same piece of skin.

the same way, one's different bodies/mind/heart, are the same one thing, expressed/seen at different 'levels' of creation.

you can identify a thought or a feeling in a body sensation, no? also you can identify the whole planet's 'waves' in your body or in your heart, can you not? or a tree. or today's weather, can't you see how is completely in sync with you? just watch how a thought of yours brings a cloud over the sun. 

didn't you hear how when you are silent, everything around you slows down and is at peace? or how someone starts drilling on your street exactly in the morning when you woke up tensed?

observe and listen. let the answers freely come to you.

hugs

 

 

 

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On 2/8/2017 at 5:01 PM, Tom said:

Any thoughts as to what Abhinavagupta is referring to as "the game"?

 

"Even as Siva creates the very real game of

breaking himself into parts which suffer transformation, division, extinction

and emptiness, he is nevertheless able to maintain himself free of the game

and intact as Siva, all the while taking on the roles required by the game."

the very real game, is reality as perceived by the mind, even tho. we live life, and take roles, as kids, parents, grandparent, worker, etc we remain essentially the same. we should not identify ourselves with the roles required by the game. even tho we transform, suffer in the game, our essence remain the same through all these roles and suffering/emotional experiences. we do not runaway from the game, we remainin it and do what is required while keeping in my mind of who we really are and it is just a game.

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On 2/24/2017 at 1:11 AM, voice said:

I see anything, anybody and any body as metaphors of the whole. same thing, expressed over and over, unique every time and yet always the same.

the physical body, the mental body, the energy body,the emotional body,layers and layers of representations of the whole.

from this viewpoint, the answer to 

is yes. everything is one and the same. 

something like...seen with bare eyes or at the microscope, a piece of skin is still a piece of skin. even if it looks different and different things within it can be studied and manipulated better at different magnifying rates and with different tools, it's the same piece of skin.

the same way, one's different bodies/mind/heart, are the same one thing, expressed/seen at different 'levels' of creation.

you can identify a thought or a feeling in a body sensation, no? also you can identify the whole planet's 'waves' in your body or in your heart, can you not? or a tree. or today's weather, can't you see how is completely in sync with you? just watch how a thought of yours brings a cloud over the sun. 

didn't you hear how when you are silent, everything around you slows down and is at peace? or how someone starts drilling on your street exactly in the morning when you woke up tensed?

observe and listen. let the answers freely come to you.

hugs

 

 

 

Wouldn't that still be separation? You are feeling these sensations, your skin is skin, your heart, body and mind are levels as you say of creation. Witnessing your thoughts for instance is separation.

Do you think it goes any deeper? Like think of you and I am you, think of a heart and you are the heart, the ocean, the sun. Not a feeling of something outside of you or a sensation become in sync but that which is you.

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ummmm, i am not sure i understand exactly what you mean, but i'll answer to what i understand you meant. 

8 hours ago, Tom said:

Wouldn't that still be separation? You are feeling these sensations, your skin is skin, your heart, body and mind are levels as you say of creation. Witnessing your thoughts for instance is separation.

yes and no. depends on how one defines separation.

am i separate from my body? i can feel how my body is not me and yet if i break a leg i feel it. i could see it as one of my functions or capabilities. it's not me and yet it is part of who i am. 

witnessing my thoughts is like looking at my hand. the eye and the hand are separate, and yet they are both mine. separate, but not cut off from each other. working in sync. does the hand decide on it's own to show itself to the eye, does the eye decide on it's own to place it's attention on it? 

sometimes i witness my thoughts, sometimes i don't. is the decision to step in and out of the witness really mine? where does it come from? how did i produce it? did i? and is not like if i am not in the witness, the witnessing doesn't happen. it's ongoing, for everyone and everything. the fact that i (can) step in and out of it doesn't make it separate, it's just a matter of where my attention goes.

9 hours ago, Tom said:

Do you think it goes any deeper? Like think of you and I am you, think of a heart and you are the heart, the ocean, the sun. Not a feeling of something outside of you or a sensation become in sync but that which is you.

it goes all the way to the essence of everything which is the same. the thing is, tho, that the deeper one goes, the less separation is perceived. in the space (or at the depth, or however is easier for you to picture it) where i am you and you are me, there is no you and me, you see? 

so if i think of you, i don't become a man on the other side of the ocean. i can get a sense of how it is to be you, maybe. the thought of you would tune my attention there and would focus on info received from that 'direction', while tuning out the rest. to truly be you, i'd have to discard (the idea of) me and (the idea of) you.

if one isn't caught up in their idea of themselves, they are free to be whatever suits the moment best. you can be your body when getting a massage and you can be the ocean when you sit on the beach and you can completely rest in absolutely nowhere when you have nothing else to do. it's a matter of allowing one's self to be whatever in any given moment. the sense is of effortless flow.

not sure this answers anything. 

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Very nice Voice.

Abhinavagupta talks about oneness and what creates separation here.

 

"The Heart, whose nature is consciousness, is the supreme resting place of all

that exists such as blue, pleasure, and so on, as well as of the body, breath,

intellect, etc. The power which consists of a sparkling vibration and which

is in the Heart, by means of its own innate freedom creates artificial divisions

such as the various cognitions, a pot, and so on."

 

He calls this perceived separation kula.

 

"In the inconceivable enormity of Siva's game, any self-contained

unit - for example, our universe - may be termed a kula. The unit is

self-sufficient precisely because it is a part that is structured out of wholeness.

Since the kula's essential reality is finally that wholeness which it

has bodied forth, every unit, or kula, resonates in identity with every

other structure composed of that wholeness. It is in this way that the

human body, as a kula, resonates in identity with the entire universe."

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