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4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Guess it sort of depends on your view. What if you think about those waves as the infinite potential of ultimate emptiness? Maybe think about Buddhism from the perspective of pure transmission and KS from the perspective of pure reception... how would you describe it?

The above description does remind me of your description of Primordial Emptiness of the light/waves as infinite potential but what the KS descriptions seems to me is going to that light level but not beyond to the emptiness. I don't see where it is saying that Siva is empty.

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4 hours ago, Tom said:

Far from it running. Lot's of traditions within Buddhism are tantric. Buddhism does tend to stay on the clarity/male side of things but there is no rejection of energy and the mother within Buddhism.

I totally agree. And know you know that. My response was based on 99 or 97% of people you would run into that practice buddhism. For example you and jeff are the only ones i know that know that.

Same with christianity. Its male driven. Law and order. And or if you worship jesus and his authority may help you out. 99% to 97% will tell u something like that. Then u got the 1% ers out there.

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I do disagree with clarity as being neutral. If thats what Buddhism believes. Thats what i get out of it as an outsider.  And that being the way for growth. I agree in ways. But its in that rejection that rejects the emotional body. The mother is highly intertwined with the emotional body. At some point emotions arent the thing that drives someone the way it once did. In that emotions aren't experienced the same. But its the same platform in which the mother works from. In feeling. To reject the emotional body is to reject the mother and her power. Thats how i see it anyways.

Edited by running
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Another thing to consider. And this goes for everything there is out there. Look what has happend to all traditions that recognize the power of the mother. All of which with few exceptions have been eliminated one way or another.

Where in almost any of them recognize her power all around us? Where is the power in the sky recognized? Where is the power in the earth recognized? Where is the power in the lakes, rivers, oceans, and storms recognized?

Any of those things can take one to the ultimate destination. Or what some believe it is.

I dont think this is a coincidence. But a killing off of how someone can independently make the journey. Leaving ones to following what is told to them as a prescription. From point a to point b. Or the need to be with someone whom can help you get there.

There is a difrerence in independence and sometimes power from an individual open to the power of the mother. Whether the loss to her is from rejecting the emotional body which she is intertwined with. And or the not knowing the power that is all around us. Both of which are like a monkey wrench to deal with.

It's my belief even the Jews knew of her power. But you cant control a people whom know that. So it became eliminated to a set of beliefs and god fearing idealogy.

With all that said im not suggesting one wont find the mother at some point. But it  becomes a much more difficult task due to these reasons imo.

Edited by running
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22 hours ago, Tom said:

The above description does remind me of your description of Primordial Emptiness of the light/waves as infinite potential but what the KS descriptions seems to me is going to that light level but not beyond to the emptiness. I don't see where it is saying that Siva is empty.

I would like to meet one of these people that claims something beyond the mother. I would like to see if there is any power there. So far i never felt much power from a person whom doesnt experience the mother.

Until i do i believe its out of rejection. The guru i met from imdia and stayed with in his ashram for about six weeks. So i hung out with him every day. He was great to be with. He didnt speak much if anuthing about the mother. Seemed to be about what some claim to be beyond the mother. Not the power from folks that embrace and see the mother as an equal part of infinity. Rather than the absence.

Every time i hear about this thing from folks about emptiness beyond the mother. Feel no power. When i hear from gurus that speak highly of the mother and or her joy. There is power in the room. They can turn on others with that power. One is like talking to the dead. The other is like talking to the fullness of life.

But im waiting to be proven wrong.

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20 hours ago, running said:

I do disagree with clarity as being neutral. If thats what Buddhism believes. Thats what i get out of it as an outsider.  And that being the way for growth. I agree in ways. But its in that rejection that rejects the emotional body. The mother is highly intertwined with the emotional body. At some point emotions arent the thing that drives someone the way it once did. In that emotions aren't experienced the same. But its the same platform in which the mother works from. In feeling. To reject the emotional body is to reject the mother and her power. Thats how i see it anyways.

There may be some confusion on this point. Think of the clarity issue more like you clear out the crap of the issues and fears. Then the natural "underneath" universal love/compassion just radiates out. They call it bodhichitta. :)

 

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29 minutes ago, running said:

I would like to meet one of these people that claims something beyond the mother. I would like to see if there is any power there. So far i never felt much power from a person whom doesnt experience the mother.

Until i do i believe its out of rejection. The guru i met from imdia and stayed with in his ashram for about six weeks. So i hung out with him every day. He was great to be with. He didnt speak much if anuthing about the mother. Seemed to be about what some claim to be beyond the mother. Not the power from folks that embrace and see the mother as an equal part of infinity. Rather than the absence.

Every time i hear about this thing from folks about emptiness beyond the mother. Feel no power. When i hear from gurus that speak highly of the mother and or her joy. There is power in the room. They can turn on others with that power. One is like talking to the dead. The other is like talking to the fullness of life.

But im waiting to be proven wrong.

In my view, there are sort of like two sides to it all. You could call it mother side and father side if you want. Mother side is more feeling/reception. Father side is more clear mind/transmission. To me, different traditions sort of naturally lean to on side or the other.  But, the key at higher levels is realizing that both sides are really two sides of the same coin.

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3 hours ago, Jeff said:

There may be some confusion on this point. Think of the clarity issue more like you clear out the crap of the issues and fears. Then the natural "underneath" universal love/compassion just radiates out. They call it bodhichitta. :)

 

Thanks for explaining. I have wondered for quite some time. Cause clarity sounds like an idea. Or an idea left. Crap coming out makes open space for bliss. So i think of clearing as making space.

Not that i think there is something wrong with calling it clarity. Im just explaining where i came upon the confusion.

Thanks agaiin for explaining!

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3 hours ago, Jeff said:

In my view, there are sort of like two sides to it all. You could call it mother side and father side if you want. Mother side is more feeling/reception. Father side is more clear mind/transmission. To me, different traditions sort of naturally lean to on side or the other.  But, the key at higher levels is realizing that both sides are really two sides of the same coin.

I agree with it being two sides of the same coin. Where i have an opinion is where the feminine side is rejected is a lack of power. Somebody in acceptance of the bliss of the mother has power. That power effects everything around the person. Transmitting joy to the world. Centered right in the heart.

Perhaps i disagree with you on which side transmits. I think you just mentioned the father side does. What makes you think that? Bliss is a sharing of the divine.

And thanks for sharing your view points

Edited by running
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8 minutes ago, running said:

I agree with it being two sides of the same coin. Where i have an opinion is where the feminine side is rejected is a lack of power. Somebody in acceptance of the bliss of the mother has power. That power effects everything around the person. Transmitting joy to the world. Centered right in the heart.

Perhaps i disagree with you on which side transmits. I think you just mentioned the father side does. What makes you think that? Bliss is a sharing of the divine.

And thanks for sharing your view points

I think it is more a relative term of polarities.  Not simply the same as you mean as "energy".  But, yes, I would agree that mom is more energy like. :)

 

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39 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I think it is more a relative term of polarities.  Not simply the same as you mean as "energy".  But, yes, I would agree that mom is more energy like. :)

 

What do i mean as energy?

I understand some things for some people can be experienced outside of the ecstatic joy. I believe what was once experienced that way can become transcended as being divine.

For example. If the wind is blowing it can feel angry. It can also feel so in ecstatic joy. And in that experience becomes more space/clarity to experience it even more so at a deeper level.

The mask of the energy can be transcended. To becoming a tool for growth. Becoming a growing experience as all divine.

Its a tug a war but a tool for growth. The more there is the more space/clarity there is. The more growth and depth of the experience of the divine.

I'm just explaining my thinking and interpretation of my experience.

Everybody has a different background of many lives that i think mold us into different beings for growth. Meaning different tools work for different folks.

For example. I have a difficult time understanding what heaviness that is negative experience energetically. My girlfriend was having problems with it due to coming upon a lot of energy that brought her down. Heaviness feeling for her is bad.

She asked me for a healing. To help clear this heaviness. Im like. What is this heaviness? And why dont i know what your talking about. I think i experience that sometime may be. But i dont know? How come people talk about this stuff so much. And why do people have problems with being taken over from letting beings in them.

She says. Your made to eat it and let in beings without it causing you the problems that others perhaps may experience. You are a recycled native american shaman. It was your job to eat it and merge with these beings.

I think she is right. Cause thats what i remembered in my awakening process. And thats what i said i was doing. And was doing. I was eating and letting beings in. Now i mostly just merge whats around me. But i know think of it as a love affair in an act of love.

I have a lot of clearing yet to do. But from what i have learned for me is eating energy and letting beings in helps me grow in ways at times.

So everybody has strengths and weaknesses. My strengths are different than some others. And my weaknesses are different than some others.

Which is why i have different perspectices. Sort of challenge what i hear. Simply cause im trying to understand. And im trying to present a different viewpoint. Not to be a problem. But to get something productive from being here and other places to.

Hope that makes sense!

Edited by running
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Yes, it makes sense.  But we just have some different words for things. Your "merge and eat" would be what I would call connecting.  Also, when I talk about energy, that would be more it's "raw" form without all of the emotions and feelings attached to it.  Like you have pointed out, having concepts of good or bad energy, to me there is no good/bad, but really just different frequency ranges. 

When your girlfriend says the energy is "heavy", it means that the energy is resonating with some issue or fear that she still has.  Kind of like it "sticks" to her (and hence, heavy).

And yes, I would agree that we all have different strengths and weaknesses. :)

 

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Yes, it makes sense.  But we just have some different words for things. Your "merge and eat" would be what I would call connecting.  Also, when I talk about energy, that would be more it's "raw" form without all of the emotions and feelings attached to it.  Like you have pointed out, having concepts of good or bad energy, to me there is no good/bad, but really just different frequency ranges. 

When your girlfriend says the energy is "heavy", it means that the energy is resonating with some issue or fear that she still has.  Kind of like it "sticks" to her (and hence, heavy).

And yes, I would agree that we all have different strengths and weaknesses. :)

 

Ok. Again thanks for helping me make more sense of this. And for your response!

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Pg 125.

The notion of visarga, translated as Emissional Power, constitutes a central and essential component of the meaning of the Heart.17

Let us begin our examination of the notion of visarga by quoting Abhinavagupta's initial exposition of the term in the PTlv;

The knowing subject has as its essence the supremely subtle vibration of the Self. It is characterized by knowedge and action, and its nature is one of contraction and expansion, that is, opening and closing. It is not like a pot, and so on, which is inert, limited and stationary. The more this combination of expansion and contraction becomes evident in the vibration of the Heart, of the triangle, etc., the more does the subjectivity become elevated, until it reaches the consciousness of Bhairava. Conversely, the more the expansion and contraction diminish, the more does the subjectivity fall until it becomes inert like a stone etc. This expansion and contraction is the characteristic of the visarga, whose essence is freedom, that is, the very power of the Lord, of the Ultimate. Therefore, the phoneme If, the visarga, is termed the Rudra- yamala, the Rudra-dyad, because it consists of both the supreme Siva and sakti, of the rest and activity which constitute the union of Bhairava with his Beloved."

In Abhinavagupta's teachings about the Kaula method, the term visarga has a wide signification. Here,it comes to name that power( known alternatively as the kauliki sakti, the Devi, the nada) that is responsible for emitting the universe in all its glorious variety. Equally important, it names the power that must be harnessed by the tantric yogin to continue the arc of manifestation as it doubles back on the journey of return to Siva. This power may be thought of as an impelling force (iccha-sakti)

that at one and the same time continuously pushes everything out into being, and continuously absorbs it all back into Siva. This power in the Heart, which is the Goddess, and which is named the visarga, is at once centrifugal (pravrtti), that is, Emissional and expansive, as well as cen- tripetal (nivrtti), that is, absorptive and unitive.20

This expansion and contraction forms a kind of "alternating current" of spiritual power which may be tapped by the yogin in various ways. The "expansive" mode may be employed for the further manifestation of desires in the external or subtle worlds (bhoga, phala), or, during the farther reaches of the sadhana, for the establishment of the experience of non-duality even in outward perceptions. The "contractive" mode connects the yogin to the inwardly ascending force that effortlessly propels the yogin to rest in absorption (samavesa-visranti) in his own unbounded, original consciousness. Here, the infinitely fast vibration of consciousness allows the re-emergence of the state of Bhairava, the state of liberation in this very life.

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Pg 128 - 131

The appearance of knowable objects (vedyollasa), which constitute the lowest or apara visarga-sakti, occurs next. While the p a r a visarga- sakti is linked to the supreme, the anuttara, A, the lowest visarga is said to occur in will, iccha, /, and domination, isana, I. As Abhinavagupta describes the process:

Now there occurs the appearance of knowable objects, which takes place in will (/) and domination (I). As knowable objects begin to appear, begin to separate themselves, there occur, on the gross level, the five gross elements and, on the subtle level, the five subtle elements. This results in ten principles, namely: earth, water, fire, air, space, smell, taste, form, touch, and sound. This is the manifestation of the knowable objects. At the same time, the sense capacities are being manifested as instruments of cognition. That is to say, the five action-capacities, namely, sexual, excretory, ambulatory, grasping, and speaking, in which the power of action predominates; and the five sense- capacities, smelling, tasting, seeing, touching, and hearing, in which the power of cognition predominates.26

Then, when by gradual degrees, the aspect of the knowable objects begins to diminish, the perceiving aspect begins to manifest itself, namely: mind, egoity, intellect, primordial materiality, and individual consciousness. Thus the principles beginning with "earth" and ending with "individual consciousness"correspond to the series of phonemes that run from K to M. The individual consciousness, even though it is a limited perceiver, is here reckoned as belong- ing to the group of knowable objects. For without it, who would perceive the objects of knowledge beginning with "earth", etc.? Such is the nature of that which appears as the knowable objects.27

The mass of knowable objects, without abandoning their state of being know- able objects, operate to unify the two different aspects: knowable object and limited knower. The principles engaged in this unification are: kala, formed of air, which impels and consists of a limited capacity for action; impure knowledge, formed of fire, which illuminates and consists of a limited capacity for knowing; maya: formed of water, which satiates; the power of attachment, expressed in the verse by the word Indra, formed of earth, which consists of intense affection, and is by nature a stopping, an immersion. These are the four powers that maintain the individual soul resting in
the middle like Trisanku, which otherwise would fall into the condition of complete inertia like a rock, etc., or would ascend into the sky of consciousness like the supreme Lord. In either case, in the absence of the finite knowing
subject, there would be no knowable objects, nor would there be contraction and expansion, because without contraction, expansion is not logically possible. This is absurd, because the entire universe, that is, the manifestation of the knowable object or the manifestation of the corresponding knower, is projected by the Emissional force which is precisely expansion and contraction.32

The power of space plays no role in sustaining the finite subject. For the power of space is inherent in the individual soul as the true subjectivity, at once empty of objects and providing a place in which objects may be known. This is the Emissional Power in its lowest form.35

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pg 132.

Now Abhinavagupta describes the intermediate manifestation, the

parapara visarga-sakti, which corresponds to the so-called pure-path

(suddhadhvan):

 

When the aspect of objectivity begins by degrees to be concealed, and the

form of consciousness begins to unfold, then to that degree there occurs a

Firmness, an increasing fullness of the form of consciousness; a union with

its own light, a vibration which is characterized by the attainment of supreme

freedom. Everything is then thoroughly pervaded by the form of consciousness.

The expression "the pentad of brahman" refers to the five phonemes S to

KS, which pervade, fulfill, cause to expand the Self - and they relate the five

principles to Vidya, isvara, Sadasiva, Sakti and Siva; they are formed of the

subtle earth, water, fire, air and space, and correspond to the five faces of

Siva: Sadyojita, Vamadeva, Aghora, Tatpurusa, and lsana. This is the

Emissional Power in its intermediate form."

 

The pentads that make up the intermediate visarga correspond to the

pentad of Sakti-s: the principle of Siva corresponds to a prevalence of

the power of consciousness (cit-sakti); the principle of Sakti corresponds

to the prevalence of the power of bliss (ananda-sakti); the principle of

the eternal Siva (Sadasiva) corresponds to the prevalence of the power

of will (iccha-sakti). Abhinavagupta states that the power of will consists

of a state of internal assent in which there is a balance, a condition of

equilibrium between knowledge and action. The principle of the Lord

(Isvara) corresponds to a prevalence of the power of knowledge (jnanasakti).

Finally, the principle of the pure knowledge (suddhavidya) corresponds

to the prevalence of the power of action (kriya-sakti).38 Abhinavagupta

insists, however, on the relationship of all of these pentads

to the Supreme.

 

Finally, these pentads are resolved back into the Ultimate, A. In this way,

the Emissional Power expands with a form that extends from the lunar stations

beginning with A, to the pentad of brahman. This is the wheel of powers of

the Lord, of Bhairava, a wheel which is an uninterrupted continuous series.

For the five powers of consciousness, bliss, will, knowledge and action, which

are made of the five "elemental" powers, are, in effect, the powers of consciousness

placed in the triangle, namely the Ultimate, the will and the unfolding

(AIU), which then unfold into a fivefold division.39

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Pg 133.

Abhinavagupta continues to insist that manifestation really occurs

within the Supreme:

 

Everything whatsoever which is said in the secret books sacred to Siva-Rudra

etc. arises from this reality. That form indeed, which bestows the lowest and

the highest powers, all that is obtained in the thirty-six principles. Selfreferential

consciousness constitutes the life of those thirty-six principles.

The cognizable objects which are the inert aspects form, so to speak, its body.

That consciousness is found in the blessed Goddess, and therefore she is able

to bestow everything. This is the threefold manifestation, which has the

phoneme A as its root, and ends in the phoneme KSA. That manifestation

is in the abode of the Ultimate A, has its beginning in the Ultimate A, and

finally therein comes to repose in the very Siva. Therefore, by that knowledge,

the true nature of the Ultimate, of the Vibration, comes to be well known.

Which is to say, that the Ultimate is only that, i.e. the entire srsti is really only

the Ultimate A. Thus, the Power which abides in the Heart is, above all,

formed of an undivided self-referential consciousness. Then, that Power,

by its own innate freedom formed of the Ultimate A, turns itself into distinct

cognitions whose form is the kaulikasiddhi. This has been decisively ascertained

in all the tantra-s such as the Siva, Rudra. Rahasya, etc.42

 

The entire manifestation is nothing other than the Ultimate. Abhinavagupta

puts this in a slightly different way in the TA:

 

The powerful movements of manifestation and reabsorption are nothing

more than the Emission of the Lord. The level of the Emissional is a projection

of the Self, from the Self, in the Self.43

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pg 134 - 135

He then distinguishes three moments within the visarga. The first is simply

the capacity for the internal movement which he terms agitation (praksobha),

the second the beginning of that agitation, and finally there is the actual

process of manifestation as it begins with the emergence of the first phoneme:

 

That indeed is the Emissional Power, and from it this whole universe arises.

In it, we may distinguish three different moments, a capacity for agitation

(praksobha), the beginning of the movement of agitation. Then, when there

occurs a state of fullness of that agitation, the group of the phoneme A begins

progressively to diminish as the other (lesser) vowels manifest. Thus the

characteristic of that sextet of vowels is that it is produced from the oscillatory

movement of the Emissional Power.48

 

In the next verses Abhinavagupta relates this internal power of agitation

to the Supreme and the Lord and brings out the symbolism of the dyad

of Siva and sakti, which is characteristic of the visarga:

 

Because its essential nature is the Supreme A, it is an expression of the first

vowel, A. The blessed Lord is in fact eternally vibrating within himself.

In him is the central power which is full of the abundance of all beings. He

is beautiful with a cosmic bliss that arises naturally from his own fully willed

agitation. He throbs eternally beautiful with the elixir (rasa) of this completely full

Emission. That union of Siva and sakti is called love.49

 

In another passage on the visarga Abhinavagupta presents the notion

of encapsulation (samputikrti), which describes the mutual inherence

of the absolute reality in all of the finite states, as well as the presence of

those finite states in the absolute reality. As Abhinavagupta describes it:

 

Thus Siva who is pierced through by sound, is in his own essential nature

self-reflexive consciousness. Siva, who appears as the Mother and Father

at the same time, is thus the universal agent. The Emission composed of the

power assumes the form of the point of Siva and again, because of the endless

universe potentially contained within it, it assumes the condition of the

Supreme. The self-reflexive consciousness which is applied to the very Self

of the Lord, which in its internal essence contains the unlimited universal

existence, is not, according to what is said by the teachers, characterized by

the state of duality. This self-reflexive consciousness as applied in the nature

of the Lord is characterized by the non-duality of Siva and sakti, that is to

say, of the Supreme and the Emission, and, because it is full to overflowing,

it is called the 'I'.

This flowing forth formed essentially of the power, begins with the Supreme

A and ends with the phoneme H, and as such comprehends within it the entire

universe without remainder. This in the end is reabsorbed back into the Supreme.

Thus this entire universe resides within the power, and that power resides within

the highest Supreme, and that again resides in the power. This is the true

meaning of the encapsulation taught by the Lord in the Sri-Trika-sastra,

where indeed an encapsulation of the power is mentioned. The entire universe

shines in consciousness and thus in the same universe consciousness shines

forth. These three terms uniting and becoming compressed form the one,

supreme form of Bhairava, whose nature is the T.52

 

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Pg 136 - 137

This condition of encapsulation describes a condition of

meditative realization in which the yogin actually experiences the encapsulated

nature of reality. Once again, it is the visarga itself that will bring

about this realization. Abhinavagupta describes this process in the

next verses:

 

This Emissional Power of the Lord is present and functions in all things in

the following way. That alone is the source of the entire agitation of the tasting

of bliss. When the state of indifference has disappeared, a vibration is perceived

in the Heart when one hears a sweet song, or smells the perfume of sandalwood

and so on. This vibration is none other than the power of bliss. It is because

of this power that men become aesthetically or religiously sensitive, that is,

possessed of Heart.

(The three types of Emission). The first, the "atomic" (anava), known by the

technical name of repose in consciousness (citta-visranti), occurs when all

possible products are emitted into the fire of emptiness. The next, known as

the awakening of the consciousness, is related to the power in that its nature

is that it maintains all visible things, and here all things that are heard, seen,

etc., tend to become submerged in consciousness of the self. Because of the

unification of all things that are thus tending to be submerged in consciousness,

and because of the increase and growth of these things in the Heart, because

of an entrance into Siva with a condition of being totally full due to the dissolution

of the finite consciousness, as a result of the dissolution of the limiting

possibility resulting from any future tension, as in the previous cases, there

occurs the highest Emission. This is the Sambhava, known technically as

the dissolution of the mind.

These three Emissions are described in similar terms in the Tattva-rak savidhana:

the union of the two is regarded as occurring in the center of the

receptacle of the lotus of the Heart. This union is characterized by the repose

of the consciousness, and it is called the last Emission. The second Emission

is characterized by the awakening of the mind. In it the entire universe, both

moving and nonmoving, appears unified. This second Emission is of two

types such that when it is even partially limited by the distinction between

perceiver and perceived, then it is known as partial, and when it is united with

Siva it is known as complete.

The third Emission, characterized by the dissolution of the mind and its nature,

is a completely full perception due to the interruption of the perceiver-perceived

duality, whose nature is thus a unification, subtle, composed of knowledge

and reposed in the self.54

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So I have been posting a lot and figure this is a good place to stop and start to ask questions or to get questions :)

What does everyone think of this quote?

For just as in the body, which is made up of all the principles and depends

on various different parts, such as the skin, etc., that Heart is called the place

where there is a repose in the pure light and pure consciousness, which is not

different from the parts of the body.

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24 minutes ago, Tom said:

So I have been posting a lot and figure this is a good place to stop and start to ask questions or to get questions :)

What does everyone think of this quote?

For just as in the body, which is made up of all the principles and depends

on various different parts, such as the skin, etc., that Heart is called the place

where there is a repose in the pure light and pure consciousness, which is not

different from the parts of the body.

 

Everything is energy and all the same, consciousness, energy, light.

Edited by shady
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1 hour ago, Tom said:

So I have been posting a lot and figure this is a good place to stop and start to ask questions or to get questions :)

What does everyone think of this quote?

 

The energy works its way through everything. Making all chakras like one. Through all the cells of the body. Through all emotions. Through all circumstances. Literally through everything. Thats the thing that is real. Everything it has worked through is like a part of it. Making it all real. But all from the thing that comes from within. Out of nothing. To everything. Through everything. And back.

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Meaning the thing that comes from nothing is always there. Not that you have to test it through all circumstances. But that nothing extinguishes it.

And im just speaking from my perspective

Edited by running
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Very nice running and shady. Abhinavagupta describes it like this.

Only the light of the Heart truly exists; in creative activity it is the active agent,

and this activity, when it reposes in itself, is the self-referential capacity of

consciousness, whereas when it begins to spread outwards it causes the manifestation

of the universe.59

Or as Shady mentioned, everything is energy :)

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