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Lankavatara Sutra


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Reading now into chapter 3, here's what I got from the first paragraph. 

The Blessed One replied: People of this world are dependent in their thinking on one of two things: on the notion of being whereby they take pleasure in realism, or in the notion of non-being whereby they take pleasure in nihilism; in either case they imagine emancipation where there is no emancipation. Those who are dependent upon notions of being, regard the world as rising from a causation that is really existent, and that this actually existing and becoming world does not take its rise from a causation that is non-existent. This is the realistic view as held by some people. Then there are other people who are dependent on the notion of the non-being of all things. These people admit the existence of greed, anger and folly, and at the same time they deny the existence of the things that produce greed, anger and folly. This is not rational, for greed, anger and folly are no more to be taken hold of as real than are things; they neither have substance nor individual marks. Where there is a state of bondage, there is binding and means for binding; but where there is emancipation, as in the case of Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, masters and disciples, who have ceased to believe in both being and non-being, there is neither bondage, binding nor means for binding.

this is pretty straightforward but I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. In the first case he is talking about people who believe that the universe comes from some preceding thing that exists and not just from nothingness. It seems that the very fact of taking something to "exist" in the mind sense is wrong because it is in duality still so it's taken to have substance and in truth has no substance. For the second case he is talking about people who believe nothing exists but hold some things to exist while holding that nothing exists, a contradiction. Also I think that maybe it's implied here that you can't truly hold nothingness as a concept in your mind because then it's still in duality and so by it's base it's wrong. In the last part is mentioned I think more explicitly that the true understanding is beyond these two conceptions and beyond duality itself (the regular mind). What do you think about that? And also what is meant with the phrase "Where there is a state of bondage, there is binding and means for binding"?  I think it is hinting at the fact that once you enter duality, start to get caught up into it, it's just a cycle of cause and effect. The only way to get out of it is to not enter the wheel in the first place, so there is no before or after, no bondage or binding. 

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Yes, seems like on target. Just remember that it is sort of a "middle" path between the two extremes. And for me the key is found in the Heart sutra. Form = Emptiness and also Emptiness = Form. It is not really repeating in the statement, but more saying that all form collapses down to emptiness, and also all form emerges from emptiness. The mind cannot really conceptualize this as the mind is kind of like a specific "slice" at that instance of perception.

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In chapter 4, it reads I think pretty straightforward but there are some questions I have.There's this passage:

Perfect-knowledge (jnana) belongs to the world of the Bodhisattvas who recognize that all things are but manifestations of mind; who clearly understand the emptiness, the un-born-ness, the ego-less-ness of all things; and who have entered into an understanding of the Five Dharmas, the twofold ego-less-ness, and into the truth of imageless-ness. Perfect-knowledge differentiates the Bodhisattva stages, and is the pathway and entrance into the exalted state of self-realization of Noble Wisdom.

I am a little confused on the differentiation of perfect-knowledge and Noble Wisdom. I believe from the chapter that perfect knowledge is still in the regular mind as opposed to Noble Wisdom but I'm not entirely clear. Is perfect knowledge just as close as you can get to the understanding of Noble Wisdom with just the local mind?

One more question I have, is the realization/clearing of universal mind also Noble wisdom? I mean, when one realizes universal mind more through clearing, is that considered Noble Wisdom or just a understanding that comes through Noble Wisdom?

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Maybe think of it like perfect knowledge is having a super clear mind.  And noble wisdom sort of realizing beyond mind.

Noble wisdom can sort of skip or not go fully deep in mind.  Kind of like you can notice the computer without all of the source code.  Perfect knowledge would be knowing all of the source code to the video game.

 

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18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Maybe think of it like perfect knowledge is having a super clear mind.  And noble wisdom sort of realizing beyond mind.

Noble wisdom can sort of skip or not go fully deep in mind.  Kind of like you can notice the computer without all of the source code.  Perfect knowledge would be knowing all of the source code to the video game.

 

So perfect knowledge would correlate with being a player in the game but Noble Wisdom is more about being it? Or is it just a seperation of clarity in regular mind vs clarity in universal mind?

And how about my other question of universal mind and Noble Wisdom?

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4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yes, perfect knowledge is "inside the game". What about universal mind and Noble wisdom?

 

is the realization/clearing of universal mind also Noble wisdom? I mean, when one realizes universal mind more through clearing, is that considered Noble Wisdom or just a understanding that comes through Noble Wisdom?

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I also have a question from Chapter VII

Realization itself is within the inner consciousness. It is an inner experience that has no connection with the lower mind-system and its discriminations of words, ideas and philosophical speculations. It shines out with its own clear light to reveal the error and foolishness of mind-constructed teachings, to render impotent evil influences from without,

and to guide one unerringly to the realm of the good non-out-flowings. Mahamati, when the earnest disciple and Bodhisattva is provided with these requirements, the way is open to his perfect attainment of self-realization of Noble Wisdom, and to the full enjoyment of the fruits that arise there from.

What does he mean by the good non-out-flowing?

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1 hour ago, Qibrush said:

is the realization/clearing of universal mind also Noble wisdom? I mean, when one realizes universal mind more through clearing, is that considered Noble Wisdom or just a understanding that comes through Noble Wisdom?

They go hand in hand, but think of it like the game vs. the memory storage for the game.

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14 minutes ago, Tom said:

I also have a question from Chapter VII

 

 

What does he mean by the good non-out-flowing?

The good non-out-flowing is like "perfect residing".  As described in the TTC, it would be like being the "valley" for the universe.

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Read through chapter 5, here's my summary of it. In the beginning he states the difference between the out flowing evil and the non out flowing good. Essentially the difference being with the discriminating mind (due to it discriminating) causing the evil out flowings and the intuitive mind through realization of Noble Wisdom causing the non out flowing good. The next part of chapter 5 is about categorizing the local mind into different parts (the sense minds, the discriminating mind) he explains there function and the relation they have with each other. The third part of chapter 5 is talking about the universal mind and it's relation with the discriminating mind where the ego is. He says that in between these two is a intuitive mind which is connected to both like a bridge. Through the intuitive mind comes the understanding of noble wisdoms into the regular mind. He points out that the only way to really stop the regular mind from discriminating is to realize Noble Wisdom through the intuitive mind. 

What do you think of this?

 

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The intuitive mind when it comes to info is its truth. Be ready for confrontation. In feeling is always neutral in that it supercedes everything. Most people dont speak intuitively due to the ramifications involved. But in feeling is no problem if they have become that.

Children are easily intuitive tell they learn its often very confrontational. So it gets shut down.  And forgotten.

This is what i have seen.

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18 hours ago, Qibrush said:

Read through chapter 5, here's my summary of it. In the beginning he states the difference between the out flowing evil and the non out flowing good. Essentially the difference being with the discriminating mind (due to it discriminating) causing the evil out flowings and the intuitive mind through realization of Noble Wisdom causing the non out flowing good. The next part of chapter 5 is about categorizing the local mind into different parts (the sense minds, the discriminating mind) he explains there function and the relation they have with each other. The third part of chapter 5 is talking about the universal mind and it's relation with the discriminating mind where the ego is. He says that in between these two is a intuitive mind which is connected to both like a bridge. Through the intuitive mind comes the understanding of noble wisdoms into the regular mind. He points out that the only way to really stop the regular mind from discriminating is to realize Noble Wisdom through the intuitive mind. 

What do you think of this?

 

Makes sense to me. :) 

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In chapter 7, there is this paragraph:

I call this the One Vehicle, not because it is the One Vehicle, but because it is only in solitude that one is able to recognize and realize the path of the One Vehicle. So long as the mind is distracted and is making conscious effort, there can be no culmination as regards the various vehicles; it is only when the mind is alone and quiet that it is able to forsake the discriminations of the external world and seek realization of an inner realm where there is neither vehicle nor one who rides in it. I speak of the three vehicles in order to carry the ignorant. I do not speak much about the One Vehicle because there is no way by which earnest disciples and masters can realize Nirvana, unaided. According to the discourses of the Tathágatas earnest disciples should be segregated, disciplined, and trained in meditation and Dhyana whereby they are aided by many devices and expedients to realize emancipation. It is because earnest disciples and masters have not fully destroyed the habit-energy of karma and the hindrances of discriminative knowledge and human passion that they are often unable to accept the twofold ego-less-ness and the inconceivable transformation death, that I preach the triple vehicle and not the One Vehicle. When earnest disciples have gotten rid of all their evil habit-energy and been able to realize the twofold ego-less-ness, then they will not be intoxicated by the bliss of the Samádhis and will be awakened into the super-realm of the good non-out-flowings. Being awakened into the realm of the good non-out-flowings, they will be able to gather up all the requisites for the attainment of Noble Wisdom, which is beyond conception and is of sovereign power. But really, Mahamati, there are no vehicles, and so I speak of the One Vehicle. Mahamati, the full recognition of the One Vehicle has never been attained by either earnest disciples, masters, or even by the great Brahma; it has been attained only by the Tathágatas themselves. That is the reason that it is known as the One Vehicle. I do not speak much about it because there is no way by which earnest disciples can realize Nirvana unaided. 

Can you explain this? What is meant by One Vehicle and what does he mean by I do not speak much about it because there is no way by which earnest disciples can realize Nirvana unaided?

Is he talking about the light body and that a teacher is needed?

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Yes, he is saying that you need the help of an enlightened one/buddha to be able to realize.  Kind of like being lifted up, because the "habit energy" or desire stuff for the individual to attempt to cross over or realize.  He is really saying that "there are no vehicles, and so I speak of the One Vehicle". 

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3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes, he is saying that you need the help of an enlightened one/buddha to be able to realize.  Kind of like being lifted up, because the "habit energy" or desire stuff for the individual to attempt to cross over or realize.  He is really saying that "there are no vehicles, and so I speak of the One Vehicle". 

So when he says

 Mahamati, the full recognition of the One Vehicle has never been attained by either earnest disciples, masters, or even by the great Brahma; it has been attained only by the Tathágatas themselves. That is the reason that it is known as the One Vehicle "

this means that he is saying that the reason that only Buddhas have attained One Vehicle is because they have realized that actually there are no vehicles, meaning that everything is just image-like or no duality and that there is just residing?

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Yes, but also one must realize that there is nothing to "attain". Such attainment is an outflow/desire. Like with the Buddha leaving and searching for years. He got nowhere. Only when he sat down by the tree and just sort of "resided". Everyone is basically pristinely clear (or a Buddha), it is more about clearing away stuff to what is "underneath" than anything you build up to. A vehicle implies there is something to build or create, which in itself if a trap of the mind.

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