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Lankavatara Sutra


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I would agree with both of you. The sutra describes it like this...

Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: Pray tell us, Blessed One, what is meant by the cessation of the mind-system?

The Blessed One replied: The five sense-fuctions and their discriminating and thinking fuction have their risings and complete ending from moment to moment. They are born with discrimination as cause, with form and appearance and objectivity closely linked together as condition. The will-to-live is the mother, ignorance is the father. By setting up names and forms greed is multiplied and thus the mind goes on mutually conditioning and being conditioned. By becoming attached to names and forms, not realising that they have no more basis than the activities of the mind itself, error rises, false-imagination as to pleasure and pain rises, and the way to emancipation is blocked. The lower system of sense-minds and the discriminating-mind do not really suffer pleasure and pain – they only imagine they do. Pleasrue and pain are the deceptive reactions of mortal-mind as it grasps an imaginary objective world.

There are two ways in which the ceasing of the mind-system may take place: as regards form, and as regards continuation. The sense-organs fuction as regards form by the interaction of form, contact and grasping; and they cease to fuction when this contact is broken. As regards continuation,- when these interactions of form, contact and grasping cease, there is no more continuation of the seeing, hearing and other sense fuctions; with the ceasing of these sense fuctions, the discriminations, graspings and attachments of the discriminating-mind cease; and with their ceasing act and eed and they habit-energy cease, and there is no more accumulation of karma-defilment on the face of Universal Mind.

If the evolving mortal-mind were of the same nature as Universal Mind the cessation of the lower mind-system would mean the cessation of Universal Mind, but they are different for Universal Mind is not the cause of mortal-mind. There is no cessation of Universal Mind in its pure and essence-nature. What ceases to fuction is not Universal Mind in its essence-nature, but is the cessation of the effect-producing defilments upon its face that have been caused by the accumulation of the habit-energy of the activities of the discriminating and thinking mortal-mind. There is no cessation of Divine Mind which, in itself, is the abode of Reality and the Womb of Truth.

By the cessation of the sense-minds is meant, not the cessation of their percieving fuctions, but the cessation of their discriminating and naming activities which are centralised in the discriminating mortal-mind. By the cessation of the mind-system as a whole is meant, the cessation of discrimination, the clearing away of the various attachments, and, therefore, the clearing away of the defilments of habit-energy in the face of Universal Mind which have been accumulating since beginningless time by reason of these discriminations, attachments, erroneous reasonings, and following acts. The cessation of the continuation aspect of the mind-system, namely, the discriminating mortal-mind the entire world of maya and desire disappears. Getting rid of the discriminating mortal-mind is Nirvana.

Any thoughts?

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I like that, in these passages I think he's talking more about the grasping and averting of the mind as  opposed

to the more true universal mind. The mind discriminates things and that leads to more discrimination or karma

leads to more karma. To cease the mind  and get to the natural universal mind you not only have to  stop

discriminating (stop creating karma) you also  have to clear away the karma you've accumulated by past  

discrimination.  Although I don't know if the two can really be separate.  I also like this line:

the lower system of sense-minds and the discriminating-mind do not really suffer pleasure and pain – they only imagine they do

pleasure and pain being caused by the discrimination itself, that there was no such thing or no difference, in

the universal mind sense. In the third paragraph I think he's emphasizing the fact that you aren't the mind but

the Universal mind and the cessation of the mind doesn't mean "you" will cease, but the definition of that might

be different in the more natural mind. Also like this in the fourth passage:

The cessation of the continuation aspect of the mind-system, namely, the discriminating mortal-mind the entire world of maya and desire disappears

The entire world of maya and desire disappear after the mind has been cleared away because it was caused by

the mind itself, and wasn't a true natural state. 

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I really like it.

By setting up names and forms greed is multiplied and thus the mind goes on mutually conditioning and being conditioned. By becoming attached to names and forms, not realising that they have no more basis than the activities of the mind itself, error rises, false-imagination as to pleasure and pain rises, and the way to emancipation is blocked.

....but the cessation of their discriminating and naming activities which are centralised in the discriminating mortal-mind. By the cessation of the mind-system as a whole is meant, the cessation of discrimination, the clearing away of the various attachments, and, therefore, the clearing away of the defilments of habit-energy in the face of Universal Mind which have been accumulating since beginningless time by reason of these discriminations, attachments, erroneous reasonings, and following acts.

The cessation of the continuation aspect of the mind-system, namely, the discriminating mortal-mind the entire world of maya and desire disappears. Getting rid of the discriminating mortal-mind is Nirvana.

It is energy that we grasp at, cling to that creates the local mind and blocks us from our true nature.

 

.

Edited by Tom
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13 hours ago, Jeff said:

I would agree with both of you. The sutra describes it like this...

Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: Pray tell us, Blessed One, what is meant by the cessation of the mind-system?

The Blessed One replied: The five sense-fuctions and their discriminating and thinking fuction have their risings and complete ending from moment to moment. They are born with discrimination as cause, with form and appearance and objectivity closely linked together as condition. The will-to-live is the mother, ignorance is the father. By setting up names and forms greed is multiplied and thus the mind goes on mutually conditioning and being conditioned. By becoming attached to names and forms, not realising that they have no more basis than the activities of the mind itself, error rises, false-imagination as to pleasure and pain rises, and the way to emancipation is blocked. The lower system of sense-minds and the discriminating-mind do not really suffer pleasure and pain – they only imagine they do. Pleasrue and pain are the deceptive reactions of mortal-mind as it grasps an imaginary objective world.

There are two ways in which the ceasing of the mind-system may take place: as regards form, and as regards continuation. The sense-organs fuction as regards form by the interaction of form, contact and grasping; and they cease to fuction when this contact is broken. As regards continuation,- when these interactions of form, contact and grasping cease, there is no more continuation of the seeing, hearing and other sense fuctions; with the ceasing of these sense fuctions, the discriminations, graspings and attachments of the discriminating-mind cease; and with their ceasing act and eed and they habit-energy cease, and there is no more accumulation of karma-defilment on the face of Universal Mind.

If the evolving mortal-mind were of the same nature as Universal Mind the cessation of the lower mind-system would mean the cessation of Universal Mind, but they are different for Universal Mind is not the cause of mortal-mind. There is no cessation of Universal Mind in its pure and essence-nature. What ceases to fuction is not Universal Mind in its essence-nature, but is the cessation of the effect-producing defilments upon its face that have been caused by the accumulation of the habit-energy of the activities of the discriminating and thinking mortal-mind. There is no cessation of Divine Mind which, in itself, is the abode of Reality and the Womb of Truth.

By the cessation of the sense-minds is meant, not the cessation of their percieving fuctions, but the cessation of their discriminating and naming activities which are centralised in the discriminating mortal-mind. By the cessation of the mind-system as a whole is meant, the cessation of discrimination, the clearing away of the various attachments, and, therefore, the clearing away of the defilments of habit-energy in the face of Universal Mind which have been accumulating since beginningless time by reason of these discriminations, attachments, erroneous reasonings, and following acts. The cessation of the continuation aspect of the mind-system, namely, the discriminating mortal-mind the entire world of maya and desire disappears. Getting rid of the discriminating mortal-mind is Nirvana.

Any thoughts?

Ok. This is how i would go about it. 

We become where our focus is. Keep the mind centered on the spirit. I dont know the buddhist word for it. So i will just call it that.

If you cant sense it normally. Maybe when you first get up in the morning. Stay lying there and see what you can sense. If you can sense it. Perhaps stay there and play with it. Put your focus on it. See how long you can stay with it.

Maybe a little more can happen each morning. Perhaps after some time you can still sense it to some degree after you get up. I would remain my focus on it. Over time perhaps all the way through out the day.

Doing so builds a bridge i have found for me. Over time you cross that bridge. After crossing that bridge then its effortless. But for me i keep going increasing its depth.

When your doing that all the things listed are being done. Cause of where the attention is. And when you become where the focus is. Nirvana.

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Chapter VI

Transcendental Intelligence

Then Mahamati said to the Blessed One: In the Scriptures mention is made of the Womb of Tathágata-hood and it is taught that that which is born of it is by nature bright and pure, originally unspotted and endowed with the thirty-two marks of excellence. As it is described it is a precious gem but wrapped in a dirty garment soiled by greed, anger, folly and false-imagination. We are taught that this Buddha-nature immanent in everyone is eternal, unchanging, and auspicious. It is not this, which is born of the Womb of Tathágata-hood the same as the soul-substance that is taught by the philosophers? The Divine Atman as taught by them is also claimed to be eternal, inscrutable, unchanging, and imperishable. Is there, or is there not a difference?

The Blessed One replied: No, Mahamati, my Womb of Tathágata-hood is not the same as the Divine Atman as taught by the philosophers. What I teach is Tathágata-hood in the sense of Dharmakaya, Ultimate Oneness, Nirvana, emptiness, unborn-ness, unqualified ness, devoid of will-effort. The reason why I teach the doctrine of Tathágata-hood is to cause the ignorant and simple-minded to lay aside their fears as they listen to the teaching of ego-less-ness and come to understand the state of non-discrimination and imageless-ness. The religious teaching of the Tathágatas are just like a potter making various vessels by his own skill of hand with the aid of rod, water and thread, out of the one mass of clay, so the Tathágatas by their command of skillful means issuing from Noble Wisdom, by various terms, expressions, and symbols, preach the twofold ego-less-ness in order to remove the last trace of discrimination that is preventing disciples from attaining a self-realization of Noble Wisdom. The doctrine of the Tathágata-womb is disclosed in order to awaken philosophers from their clinging to the notion of a Divine Atman as transcendental personality, so that their minds that have become attached to the imaginary notion of "soul" as being something self-existent may be quickly awakened to a state of perfect enlightenment. All such notions as causation, succession, atoms, primary elements, that make up personality, personal soul, Supreme Spirit, Sovereign God, Creator, are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of mind. No, Mahamati, the Tathágata’s doctrine of the Womb of Tathágata-hood is not the same as the philosopher’s Atman.

The Bodhisattva is said to have well grasped the teaching of the Tathágatas when, all alone in a lonely place, by means of his Transcendental Intelligence, he walks the path leading to Nirvana. Thereon his mind will unfold by perceiving, thinking, meditating, and, abiding in the practice of concentration until he attains the "turning-about" at the source of habit-energy, he will thereafter lead a life of excellent deeds. His mind concentrated on the state of Buddhahood, he will become thoroughly conversant with the noble truth of self-realization; he will become perfect master of his own mind; he will be like a gem radiating many colors; he will be able to assume bodies of transformation; he will be able to enter into the minds of all to help them; and; finally, by gradually ascending the stages he will become established in the perfect Transcendental Intelligence of the Tathágatas.

Nevertheless, Transcendental Intelligence (Arya-jnana) is not Noble Wisdom (Arya-prajña) itself, only an intuitive awareness of it. Noble Wisdom is a perfect state of imageless-ness; it is the Womb of "Suchness;" it is the all-conserving Divine Mind (Alaya-Vijnana), which in its pure Essence forever abides in perfect patience and undisturbed tranquility.

 

Thoughts?

 

P.S. Here is an online copy: http://buddhasutra.com/files/lankavatara_sutra.htm

.

Edited by Tom
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I'm not too familiar with some of these terms that are being said but here's what I think.

Here:

 The religious teaching of the Tathágatas are just like a potter making various vessels by his own skill of hand with the aid of rod, water and thread, out of the one mass of clay, so the Tathágatas by their command of skillful means issuing from Noble Wisdom, by various terms, expressions, and symbols, preach the twofold ego-less-ness in order to remove the last trace of discrimination that is preventing disciples from attaining a self-realization of Noble Wisdom.

He's saying that the teachings are just forms pointing to the actual thing. The second line saying that one who knows what it's pointing to is able to create new teachings just like molding various things out of a wad of clay.

The rest of the paragraph says that the teachings of the Divine Atman are made from the basis of the mind, and he taught earlier that things made from the made are inherently false, or not the real truth.

In the third paragraph

abiding in the practice of concentration until he attains the "turning-about" at the source of habit-energy

That's talking about a point when one masters the mind by clearing out all karma and also stopping new karma from being created. Habit-energy being karma and the source of that being the mind. 

he will be able to assume bodies of transformation  - Maybe talking about the kayas. 

he will be able to enter into the minds of all to help them; - Light body reference, being one with others.

I'm not sure what's meant with the phrase Transcendental Intelligence but I think it's referring to the state of knowing, pure intuition. Another light body reference. 

In the last paragraph he's pointing out that the Noble Wisdom is more than Transcendental intelligence it's the bhudda-mind or universal mind. I think this is a a reference to the dharmakaya.

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Hi I was just perusing this thread and very interesting, it was the first day for me at my counselling course ,I need something to do and some way to help out, I believe its my calling anyway ,all that mind stuff which my mind has been craving is great if not draining but its like a focus u know , I was real sick when I turned up and had to go have some time out where I reconnected with spirit, the induction was good it was great to watch myself and see all the different ways I communicate etc , When I got home ,I got straight into so me Qs ,didn't sleep last night due to cfs and so tired went and layed down and starting saying heart sutra ,it was so intense it was like because my focus wasn't on forcing my spirituality all the time ,it was in me like  from base ,lovely heart and moved up to light up my crown ,what I'm  asking is although I know what I'm getting into is a lot of mental stuff ,does it really matter in as so much  it may enhance my spirituality...

also what is the mantra for the lankavatara sutra please and where does it correspond?

 

 

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23 hours ago, Tom said:

Chapter VI

Transcendental Intelligence

Then Mahamati said to the Blessed One: In the Scriptures mention is made of the Womb of Tathágata-hood and it is taught that that which is born of it is by nature bright and pure, originally unspotted and endowed with the thirty-two marks of excellence. As it is described it is a precious gem but wrapped in a dirty garment soiled by greed, anger, folly and false-imagination. We are taught that this Buddha-nature immanent in everyone is eternal, unchanging, and auspicious. It is not this, which is born of the Womb of Tathágata-hood the same as the soul-substance that is taught by the philosophers? The Divine Atman as taught by them is also claimed to be eternal, inscrutable, unchanging, and imperishable. Is there, or is there not a difference?

The Blessed One replied: No, Mahamati, my Womb of Tathágata-hood is not the same as the Divine Atman as taught by the philosophers. What I teach is Tathágata-hood in the sense of Dharmakaya, Ultimate Oneness, Nirvana, emptiness, unborn-ness, unqualified ness, devoid of will-effort. The reason why I teach the doctrine of Tathágata-hood is to cause the ignorant and simple-minded to lay aside their fears as they listen to the teaching of ego-less-ness and come to understand the state of non-discrimination and imageless-ness. The religious teaching of the Tathágatas are just like a potter making various vessels by his own skill of hand with the aid of rod, water and thread, out of the one mass of clay, so the Tathágatas by their command of skillful means issuing from Noble Wisdom, by various terms, expressions, and symbols, preach the twofold ego-less-ness in order to remove the last trace of discrimination that is preventing disciples from attaining a self-realization of Noble Wisdom. The doctrine of the Tathágata-womb is disclosed in order to awaken philosophers from their clinging to the notion of a Divine Atman as transcendental personality, so that their minds that have become attached to the imaginary notion of "soul" as being something self-existent may be quickly awakened to a state of perfect enlightenment. All such notions as causation, succession, atoms, primary elements, that make up personality, personal soul, Supreme Spirit, Sovereign God, Creator, are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of mind. No, Mahamati, the Tathágata’s doctrine of the Womb of Tathágata-hood is not the same as the philosopher’s Atman.

The Bodhisattva is said to have well grasped the teaching of the Tathágatas when, all alone in a lonely place, by means of his Transcendental Intelligence, he walks the path leading to Nirvana. Thereon his mind will unfold by perceiving, thinking, meditating, and, abiding in the practice of concentration until he attains the "turning-about" at the source of habit-energy, he will thereafter lead a life of excellent deeds. His mind concentrated on the state of Buddhahood, he will become thoroughly conversant with the noble truth of self-realization; he will become perfect master of his own mind; he will be like a gem radiating many colors; he will be able to assume bodies of transformation; he will be able to enter into the minds of all to help them; and; finally, by gradually ascending the stages he will become established in the perfect Transcendental Intelligence of the Tathágatas.

Nevertheless, Transcendental Intelligence (Arya-jnana) is not Noble Wisdom (Arya-prajña) itself, only an intuitive awareness of it. Noble Wisdom is a perfect state of imageless-ness; it is the Womb of "Suchness;" it is the all-conserving Divine Mind (Alaya-Vijnana), which in its pure Essence forever abides in perfect patience and undisturbed tranquility.

 

Thoughts?

 

P.S. Here is an online copy: http://buddhasutra.com/files/lankavatara_sutra.htm

.

 

Ok my thoughts.

The divine is beyond the ego and mind. The divine is beyond trying and not trying. Its like a phenomena that is of itself. Its always working and causeless. Information is like a distraction from it. Its something coming out of it to say something. Which is cool. But what he is saying is transcedental intelligence is raw or you could say beyond the information aspect that may arrise from it. Its the raw nectar.

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Apparently Jesus says something like Do my business until I return in LUKE, I think doing this course will be great ,ive already had much clearer and  more uplifting messages from the other side ,I believe that this is pleasing to the universe ,God ,The Goodness, the Divine and to my own well being , I was actually hungry last night for the first time in ages, and I ate heartily, amazing feeling , and I slept ,it is part of my puzzle ,my soul requirement,

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The doctrine of the Tathágata-womb is disclosed in order to awaken philosophers from their

clinging to the notion of a Divine Atman as transcendental personality

, so that their minds that have become attached to the imaginary notion of "soul" as being something self-existent may be quickly awakened to a state of perfect enlightenment. All such notions as causation, succession, atoms, primary elements, that make up personality, personal soul, Supreme Spirit, Sovereign God, Creator, are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of mind. No, Mahamati, the Tathágata’s doctrine of the Womb of Tathágata-hood is not the same as the philosopher’s Atman

I thought this was very important, this is what the difference is between Buddhism and Hinduism. The difference is very fine and hard to grasp unless you have experienced emptiness I would think.

The Atman is a soul a "thing" that "exist" as the Buddha put it "All such notions as causation, succession, atoms, primary elements, that make up personality, personal soul, Supreme Spirit, Sovereign God, Creator, are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of mind".

Why?

Because Void=Form and Form=Void. All things are energy/form and energy has no true form because it is empty like a cloud. Empty to the point that even an atom is just energy which is in the truest since is empty/void.

So the Buddha is saying there is no soul up in the heavens or within ones self. That there is also no supreme being that is made up of "things/atoms" sitting on a throne somewhere. To think such a thing "are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of mind."

.

Edited by Tom
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3 hours ago, Tom said:

 

 

I thought this was very important, this is what the difference is between Buddhism and Hinduism. The difference is very fine and hard to grasp unless you have experienced emptiness I would think.

The Atman is a soul a "thing" that "exist" as the Buddha put it "All such notions as causation, succession, atoms, primary elements, that make up personality, personal soul, Supreme Spirit, Sovereign God, Creator, are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of mind".

Why?

Because Void=Form and Form=Void. All things are energy/form and energy has no true form because it is empty like a cloud. Empty to the point that even an atom is just energy which is in the truest since is empty/void.

So the Buddha is saying there is no soul up in the heavens or within ones self. That there is also no supreme being that is made up of "things/atoms" sitting on a throne somewhere. To think such a thing "are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of mind."

.

When completely full in bliss and silence i have found there is no room for anything else to perceive.

When it drops enough you can perceive other things. 

Bliss and silence rule! Lol

So for me i agree with what your saying.

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Chapter VII

Self-Realization

Then said Mahamati: Pray tell us, Blessed One, what is the nature of Self-realization by reason of which we shall be able to attain Transcendental Intelligence?

The Blessed One Replied: Transcendental Intelligence rises when the intellectual-mind reaches its limit and, if things are to be realized in their true and essence nature, its processes of mentation, which are based on particularized ideas, discriminations and judgments, must be transcended by an appeal to some higher faculty of cognition, if there be such a higher faculty. There is such a faculty in the intuitive-mind (Manas), which as we have seen is the link between the intellectual-mind and Universal Mind. While it is not an individualized organ like the intellectual-mind, it has that which is much better, direct dependence upon Universal Mind. While intuition does not give information that can be analyzed and discriminated, it gives that which is far superior, self-realization through identification. 

.......................................................................................................................................................

Mahamati, when you and the other Bodhisattvas understand well the distinction between attachment and detachment, you will be in possession of skillful means for avoiding becoming attached to words according to which one proceeds to grasp meanings. Free from the domination of words you will be able to establish yourselves where there will be a "turning-about" in the deepest seat of consciousness by means of which you will attain self-realization of Noble Wisdom and be able to enter into all the Buddha-lands and assemblies. There you will be stamped with the stamp of the powers, self-command, the psychic faculties, and will be endowed with the wisdom and the power of the ten inexhaustible vows, and will become radiant with the variegated rays of the Transformation Bodies. Therewith you will shine without effort like the moon, the sun, the magic wishing-jewel, and at every stage will view things as being of perfect oneness with yourself, uncontaminated by any self-consciousness. Seeing that all things are like a dream, you will be able to enter into the stage of the Tathágatas and be able to deliver the discourses on the Dharma to the world of beings in accordance with their needs and be able to free them from all dualistic notions and false discriminations.

Mahamati, there are two ways of considering self-realization: namely, the teachings about it, and the realization itself. The teachings as variously given in the nine divisions of the doctrinal works, for the instructions of those who are inclined toward it, by making use of skillful means and expedients, are intended to awaken in all beings a true perception of the Dharma. The teachings are designed to keep one away from all the dualistic notions of being and non-being and oneness and otherness.

Realization itself is within the inner consciousness. It is an inner experience that has no connection with the lower mind-system and its discriminations of words, ideas and philosophical speculations. It shines out with its own clear light to reveal the error and foolishness of mind-constructed teachings, to render impotent evil influences from without, and to guide one unerringly to the realm of the good non-out-flowings. Mahamati, when the earnest disciple and Bodhisattva is provided with these requirements, the way is open to his perfect attainment of self-realization of Noble Wisdom, and to the full enjoyment of the fruits that arise there from. 

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Chapter VIII

The Attainment of Self-Realization

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realization as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samádhis.

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realization, there is one danger against which they must be on their guard. Disciples may not appreciate that the mind-system, because of its accumulated habit-energy, goes on functioning, more or less unconsciously, as long as they live. They may sometimes think that they can expedite the attainment of their goal of tranquilization by entirely suppressing the activities of the mind-system. This is a mistake, for even if the activities of the mind are suppressed, the mind will still go on functioning because the seeds of habit-energy will still remain in it. What they think is extinction of mind, is really the non-functioning of the mind’s external world to which they are no longer attached. That is, the goal if tranquilization is to be reached not by suppressing all mind activity but by getting rid of discriminations and attachments.

Then there are others who, afraid of the suffering incident to the discriminations of life and death, unwisely seek Nirvana. They have come to see that all things subject to discrimination have no reality and so imagine that Nirvana must consist in the annihilation of the senses and their fields of sensation; they do not appreciate that birth-and-death and Nirvana are not separate one from the other. They do not know that Nirvana is Universal Mind in its purity. Therefore, these stupid ones who cling to the notion that Nirvana is a world by itself that is outside what is seen of the mind, ignoring all the teachings of the Tathágatas concerning the external world, go on rolling themselves along the wheel of birth-and-death. But when they experience the "turning-about" in their deepest consciousness, which will bring with it the perfect self-realization of Noble Wisdom, then they will understand.

Having gained a thorough understanding of the mind-system, the three self-natures, the twofold ego-less-ness, and established himself in the measure of self-realization that goes with that attainment, all of which may be gained by his right-knowledge, the way will be clear for the Bodhisattva’s further advance along the stages of Bodhisattva-hood. The disciple should then abandon the understanding of mind which he has gained by right-knowledge, which in comparison with Noble Wisdom is like a lame donkey, and entering on the eighth stage of Bodhisattva-hood, he should then disciple himself in Noble Wisdom according to its three aspects.

These aspects are: First, imageless-ness, which comes forth when all things belonging to discipleship, mastership, and philosophy are thoroughly mastered. Second, the power added by all the Buddhas by reason of their original vows including the identification of their lives and the sharing of their merit with all sentient lives. Third, the perfect self-realization that thus far has only been realized in a measure, as the Bodhisattva succeeds in detaching himself from viewing all things, including his own imagined ego-ness, in their phenomenality, and realizes the states of Samádhi and Samapatti whereby he surveys the world as a vision and a dream, and being sustained by all the Buddhas, he will be able to pass on to the full attainment of the Tathágata stage, which is Noble Wisdom itself. This is the triplicity of the noble life and being furnished with this triplicity the perfect self-realization of Noble Wisdom has been attained.  

 

Any thoughts?

Edited by Tom
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The first paragraph is talking about holding onto something, like the want to help all beings, so you

can go on to be truly enlightened instead of cessation.But I don't know if he's talking about a state

that is after the ceasing of the mind or during the realization of ultimate reality. Second paragraph

speaks for itself and is warning that suppressing the mind/the fears and issues in the mind, is not

the same as clearing out and getting rid of those obstructions. I'm not to sure of the third paragraph

but I think it's talking about the people who seek enlightenment to go after a goal that is from the

mind, that nirvana, and in the end it collapses on itself once they see the real truth of what they were

going after.Once that obstruction is let go and they are able to see the truth underneath it. But still not

too sure what it's saying though :)  I believe Fourth paragraph Is saying that once you've reached a

state that you can start to realize the universal mind, you have to discard what you've learned with the

lower mind because it can never truly hold what the universal mind is and to understand further you have

to learn in terms of the universal mind itself.Maybe something like, I can draw you a  picture of a city and

tell you about it, but you'll never really get it till you go there yourself.  A 2D picture can't beat a 3D experience.

Going further, then you can draw a picture for  someone else, the pictures might look different but you're

still pointing to the same city, getting the person ready to go there them self. Not too sure about the three

aspects either. The state of imageless-ness I can understand because the layers beyond mind are imageless,

just knowing is there. Maybe the third aspect is the full realization of universal mind.

 

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HI Qi,

Here is the third paragraph.

Then there are others who, afraid of the suffering incident to the discriminations of life and death, unwisely seek Nirvana. They have come to see that all things subject to discrimination have no reality and so imagine that Nirvana must consist in the annihilation of the senses and their fields of sensation; they do not appreciate that birth-and-death and Nirvana are not separate one from the other. They do not know that Nirvana is Universal Mind in its purity. Therefore, these stupid ones who cling to the notion that Nirvana is a world by itself that is outside what is seen of the mind, ignoring all the teachings of the Tathágatas concerning the external world, go on rolling themselves along the wheel of birth-and-death. But when they experience the "turning-about" in their deepest consciousness, which will bring with it the perfect self-realization of Noble Wisdom, then they will understand.

To me this is warning people not to get the wrong idea of what Universal Mind is.

It is not the annihilation of the senses and their fields of sensation.

It is not  a world by itself that is outside what is seen of the mind.

Another fine point is this:

Birth-and-death and Nirvana are not separate one from the other and it is when one has a  "turning-about" in their deepest consciousness, which will bring with it the perfect self-realization of Noble Wisdom, then they will understand.

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  • 2 weeks later...

How about some of the next chapter.

Chapter IX

The Fruit of Self-Realization

Mahamati said: Blessed One, tell us about the sustaining power of the Tathágatas by which the Bodhisattvas are aided to attain self-realization of Noble Wisdom?

The Blessed One replied: There are two kinds of sustaining power, which issue from the Tathágatas and are at the service of the Bodhisattvas, sustained by which the Bodhisattvas should prostrate themselves before them and show their appreciation by asking questions. The first kind of sustaining power is the Bodhisattva’s own adoration and faith in the Buddhas by reason of which the Buddhas are able to manifest themselves and render their aid and to ordain them with their own hands. The second kind of sustaining power is the power radiating from the Tathágatas that enables the Bodhisattvas to attain and to pass through the various Samádhis and Samapattis without becoming intoxicated by their bliss.

Being sustained by the power of the Buddhas, the Bodhisattva even at the first stage will be able to attain the Samádhi known as the Light of Mahayana. In that Samádhi Bodhisattvas will become conscious of the presence of the Tathágatas coming from all their different abodes in the ten quarters to impart to the Bodhisattvas their sustaining power in various ways. As the Bodhisattva Vajragarbha was sustained in his Samádhis and as many other Bodhisattvas of like degree and virtue have been sustained, so all earnest disciples and masters and Bodhisattvas may experience this sustaining power of the Buddhas in their Samádhis and Samapattis. The disciple’s faith and the Tathágata’s merit are two aspects of the same sustaining power and by it alone are the Bodhisattvas enabled to become one with the company of the Buddhas.

Whatever Samádhis, psychic faculties and teachings are realized by the Bodhisattvas, they are made possible only by the sustaining power of the Buddhas; if it were otherwise, the ignorant and the simple-minded might attain the same fruitage. Wherever the Tathágatas enter with their sustaining power there will be music, not only music made by human lips and played by human hands on various instruments, but there will be music among the grass and shrubs and trees, and in the mountains and towns and palaces and hovels; much more will there be music in the heart of those endowed with sentiency. The deaf, dumb and blind will be cured of their deficiencies and will rejoice in their emancipation. Such is the extraordinary virtue of the sustaining power imparted by the Tathágatas.

By the bestowal of this sustaining power, the Bodhisattvas are enabled to avoid the evils of passion, hatred and enslaving karma; they are enabled to transcend the Dhyana of the beginners and to advance beyond the experience and truth already attained; they are enabled to demonstrate the Paramitas; and finally, to attain the stage of Tathágata-hood. Mahamati, if it were not for this sustaining power, they would relapse into the ways and thoughts of the philosophers, easy-going disciples and the evil-minded, and would thus fall short of the highest attainment. For these reasons, earnest disciples and sincere Bodhisattvas are sustained by the power of all the Tathágatas. 

 

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The big question then is what is the "sustaining power" that the Buddha is talking about?

The "sustaining power" is the Flows. The light from the Tathágatas that one feels at first flowing through them and eventually as them. It is the flows that when working with advanced beings increases silence and helps to remove obstructions. It is this "sustaining power" that is ever flowing that helps to move those beings along.

Edited by Tom
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  • 1 month later...

Chapter X

Discipleship: Lineage of the Arhats

 

The class known as Arhats are those earnest masters who belong to the returning class. But their spiritual insight they have reached the sixth and seventh stages. They have thoroughly understood the truth of the twofold ego-less-ness and the imageless-ness of Reality; with them there is no more discrimination, nor passions, nor pride of egoism; they have gained an exalted insight and seen into the immensity of the Buddha-lands. By attaining an inner perception of the true nature of Universal Mind they are steadily purifying their habit-energy. The Arhats has attained emancipation, enlightenment, the Dhyanas, the Samádhis, and his whole attention is given to the attainment of Nirvana, but the idea of Nirvana causes mental perturbations because he has the wrong idea of Nirvana. The notions of Nirvana in his mind are divided: he discriminates Nirvana from self, and self from others. He has attained some of the fruits of self-realization but he still thinks and discourses on the Dhyanas, subjects for meditation, the Samádhis, the fruits. He pride-fully says: "There are fetters, but I am disengaged from them." His is a double fault: he both denounces the vices of the ego, and still cling to its fetters. So long as he continues to discriminate notions of Dhyana, Dhyana practice, subjects for Dhyana, right-knowledge and truth, there is a bewildered state of mind; he has not attained perfect emancipation. Emancipation comes with the acceptance of imageless-ness.

He is master of the Dhyanas and enters into the Samádhis, but to reach the higher stages one must pass beyond the Dhyanas, the immeasurables, the world of no-form, and the bliss of the Samádhis into the Samapattis leading to the cessation of thought itself. The Dhyana practitioner, Dhyana, the subject of Dhyana, the cessation of thought, once-returning, never-returning, all these are divided and bewildering states of mind. Not until all discrimination is abandoned is there perfect emancipation. Thus the Arhats, master of the Dhyanas, participating in the Samádhis, but unsupported by the Buddhas yields to the entrancing bliss of the Samádhis – and passes to his Nirvana.

......But at the sixth stage all discrimination ceases as they become engrossed in the bliss of the Samádhis wherein they cherish the thought of Nirvana and, as Nirvana is possible at the sixth stage, they pass into their Nirvana, but it is not the Nirvana of the Buddhas.

 

Any thoughts?

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Im just trying to figure out how does somebody experience the nirvavana of the self and at the same time discriminate it as separate from other things?   You merge with what ever is around you. Like a chameleon changing colors. Thats what seems to enable the phenomena happen.

Maybe there is some kinda other self experience. Im not sure how that would work? Or i guess it would be an entirely different self experience. Maybe they experience it in meditation and then put a suit of armour on when there done Lol. Which i guess is pretty normal i think until it becomes effortless and without gaps.

The refinement of the energy is endless imo. The buddhas is a stepping stone. Or jesus or whatever.  Not because its greater or less than. But because it is speculative. I am my own center is how i see it for me.

But its not like im disagreeing about whatever it may be. Im expressing my perception based on my experience. 

Its like this. The other night i had a vision of talking to three beings. They each told me Jesus was coming. And he is coming down to cause me problems. The most powerful being in the world they kept saying.

So i looked in my personal book of the universe. I looked at Jesus and saw that in my universe he is nothing for me to he concernee about.

Again they say. The most powerful being in the universe. I looked again wnd said. Sorry. But in my book he is nothing to be concerned about. Its not like im better or less than its just that i have my experience that i value much more than i do him. 

The time before that i was talking to a teacher  looking for some answers to what i was experiencing. The Jesus thing came up. And I'm feeling something that is very contradictive to my growth. So i wound up reading the cause and effect of his life. Meaning an event. I was right on the energy and said im right on it. I have to put my intuition first. And watch so and so guru is going to make a you tube video defending him but  mention the event. Which was spooky to realize the power of intuition but helpful to realize its good to put it first.

So it becomes like this at some point i have found for me. What do i put first. My intuition and feeling or not. 

 

 

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I hope speaking candidly as i try to on the boards isnt a problem. I want to throw that out there cause im usually have different perspectives on things. Or i express them more. Sometimes i throw character into what im saying for fun.

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You know since i brought up the cause and effect thing i read. Its been an observation of that and other things. Interpretations of messages and contemplation that has brought me to believe. What it is is just what it is. But intentions seems to hold some weight. 

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  • 7 months later...

Reading through it now, and I have some questions.

In chapter 2, it seems to be talking about the dualism again but in a focused way. Specifically why certain views that are based in dualism are not true and in the end it all has no substance. What do you think? And would there be a point in talking about what you shoudn't hold as your views when you can directly experience what is true through knowing?

I am confused about some phrases that are used though. For example there is this passage :"they do not recognize that the objective world rises from the mind itself; they do not understand that the whole mind-system also arises from the mind itself;" Could you explain to me what he means by the objective world rises from the mind and what mind system is? I think the first thing is talking about the dualism that is made from the mind but I'm not for sure

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Maybe try to think of it like this... The mindsystem is Buddhamind as the universal or shared mind. Raw "emptiness" is sort of like a primordial sea of nothingness. Potential bubbles up as sentient beings, but primordial emptiness is not stable. The primordial Buddha is kind of like a being that has stablized a shared space and transmits sort of a stable overlay in/on top of that primordial emptiness. This stable bubble is sometimes called the dharmakaya or Buddhamind. This stable overlay is what we call the universe and what we perceive as the world. Hence, it arises or is translated in mind as forms we comprehend.

At a physics level you can think of it like this... The table in front of you looks and feels like a table (arises in your mind), but really is mostly open space with some electrons popping in and out of theoretical states creating a repulsive electromagnetic force. If you had an electron microscope that could see at that level, you would see there is really no such thing as a table, just electrons moving.

In Buddhism, it is the (shared) mind system that gives us the mental translation of a "table".

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22 hours ago, Qibrush said:

Reading through it now, and I have some questions.

In chapter 2, it seems to be talking about the dualism again but in a focused way. Specifically why certain views that are based in dualism are not true and in the end it all has no substance. What do you think? And would there be a point in talking about what you shoudn't hold as your views when you can directly experience what is true through knowing?

...

I think you are right on that the text is trying to lay a framework for description on how the mind (system) works and why there is the perception of duality. On what is directly true through knowing... you must also consider that there are also constantly deeper layer of mind and hence then deeper perceptions of what is seen (or known) to be true. Like when you see something with a magnifying glass, but then later see what is happening with a microscope... increasing layers of refinement.

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