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Lankavatara Sutra


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Later in the chapter, Buddha said...

 

There are four kinds of Knowledge: Appearance-knowledge, relative-knowledge, perfect-knowledge, and Transcendental Intelligence.

 

Any idea what the difference is between the four kinds?  How they may relate to consciousness and various "layers" (or depths) in consciousness?

 

Best wishes.

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Let us take TRUTH.....

Appearance knowledge.............TRUTH IS GOOD......Truth makes life easy,simple and comfortable for the society.

Relative knowledge.........TRUTH IS NOT ALWAYS GOOD ......... There is a story of a saint meditating under a tree.

..........................IT SHOULD BE JUDICIALLY USED....... A cow passez by and goes in one direction. After some

..............................................................time butcher follows and asks the saint,the direction the

..............................................................cow took. the saint tellS A lIE to save the life of cow.

Perfect knowledge..........TRUTH IS ALWAYS GOOD............. Saint should not have LIED.Cow and butcher were playing

............................................................ their karma. Now the saint has created a karma for himself.

Transcental knowledge......THEIR IS NO TRUTH OR LIE...........All is EMPTINESS. Nothing is happening

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Another example of meat eating...

Layman....Appearance knowledge.......Meat eating is good for health. Doctors confirm it.

Hinayanist/Therwadian....Relative knowledge.....Meat eating is not good, it is exotic food and disturbs meditation.

Mahayanist...Perfect knowledge......Meat eating is good. Meditation develops STRONG WISDOM which clear its effects.

This then helps through COMPASSION process many sentients in purifying them.

Buddhahood....Transcendal knowledge..... Meat eating is neither good nor bad. All is ME/EMPTINESS.

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Thank you Riju for the examples.

Here are some words of Buddha on the topic...

Appearance-knowledge belongs to the ignorant and simple-minded who are addicted to the notion of being and non-being, and who are frightened at the thought of being un-born. It is produced by the concordance of the triple combination and attaches itself to the multiplicities of objects; it is characterised by attainability and accumulation; it is subject to birth and destruction. Appearance-knowledge belongs to word-mongers who revel in discriminations, assertions and negations.

Relative-knowledge belongs to the mind-world of the philosophers. It rises from the mind's ability to arrange, combine and analyse these relations by its powers of discursive logic and imagination, by reason of which it is able to peer into the meaning and significance of things.

Perfect-knowledge belongs to the world of the Bodhisattvas who recognise that all things are but manifestations of mind; who clearly understand the emptiness, the un-borness, the egolessness of all things; and who have entered into an understanding of the Five Dharmas, the twofold egolessness, and into the truth of imagelessness. Perfect-knowledge differentiates the Bodhisattva stages, and is the pathway and entrance into the exalted state of self-realisation of Noble Wisdom.

Perfect-knowledge (jnana) belongs to the Bodhisattvas who are entirely free from the dualism of being and non-being, no-birth and no-annihilation, all assertions and negations, and who, by reason of self-realisation, have gained an insight into the truth of egolessness and imagelessness. They no longer discriminate the world as subject to causation: they regard the causation that rules the world as something like the fabled city of the Gandharvas. To them the world is like a vision and a dream, it is like the birth and death of a barren-woman's child; to them there is nothing evolving and nothing disappearing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Continuing on with the 4th chapter...

The wise who cherish Perfect-knowledge, may be divided into three classes, disciples, masters and Arhats. Common disciples are separated fro masters as common disciples continue to cherish the notion of individuality and generality; masters rise from common disciples when, forsaking the erros of individuality and generality, they still cling to the notion of an ego-soul by reasons of which they go off by themselves into retirement and solitude. Arhats rise when the error of all discrimination is realised. Error being discriminated by the wise turns into Truth by virtue of the "turning-about" that takes place within the deepest consciousness. Mind, thus emancipated, enters into perfect self-realisation of Noble Wisdom.

What do these words and different classes mean to you? Anyone see how the description of an Arhat relates to the realization of emptiness/shunyata (as described in the Heart sutra)?

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Realisation of Emptiness (different from EMPTINESS) happents at each plane of ascendency.

 

When a person in 27th plane through whole body vipassana is on the verge of Emptiness. This person declares

himself as an Arhat. 

And these types of Arhats were expelled by Guatam Buddha in first chapter of Lotus sutra.

 

ARHATSHIP at 5th level is the real ARHAT,

This is ARAHATSHIP that HEART SUTRA must have described.

This gives one the experience of EMPTINESS (and not Emptiness of each plane)

 

Bliss and ultimate WISDOM  of EMPTINESS arise here.

This ARHAT knowing the WISDOM OF EMPTINESS goes naturally into EXISTENCE. in the presence of a Buddha.

Or if the bliss is overpowering , he loses himself in EMPTINESS through this bliss.

Edited by riju
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EMPTINESS is absolute STILLNESS.

(attention Liz )

 

Viberation (sound) creates planes below it.

 

Our phyisical senses are at high viberation level.

So we are in moving train looking at the surrounding trees or mountains. 

 

Looking from EMPTINESS point of view all planes like Time, space,consciousness, dark light bodies, suns and stars, shining light bodies

, physical matter are heaviest in viberational plane sequencially

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Realisation of Emptiness (different from EMPTINESS) happents at each plane of ascendency.

 

When a person in 27th plane through whole body vipassana is on the verge of Emptiness. This person declares

himself as an Arhat. 

And these types of Arhats were expelled by Guatam Buddha in first chapter of Lotus sutra.

 

ARHATSHIP at 5th level is the real ARHAT,

This is ARAHATSHIP that HEART SUTRA must have described.

This gives one the experience of EMPTINESS (and not Emptiness of each plane)

 

Bliss and ultimate WISDOM  of EMPTINESS arise here.

This ARHAT knowing the WISDOM OF EMPTINESS goes naturally into EXISTENCE. in the presence of a Buddha.

Or if the bliss is overpowering , he loses himself in EMPTINESS through this bliss.

 

As we have discussed earlier in this thread, there are different types (or layers) of emptiness.  The Lankavatara Sutra describes seven. The highest being the emptiness of ultimate reality ( or in your system, the emptiness of level 1). Arhatship is not described in the Heart Sutra. The Heart Sutra only describes the emptiness of ultimate reality.

 

For discussion, I think it is easiest to simplify things down into the buddhist concept of two-fold emptiness.  The first is "emptiness of self" and it is this realization that is associated with being an Arhat. It is also the same as the realization of the first half of the Heart Sutra.

 

A buddha fully realizes emptiness of ultimate reality. And with that realization can create or define new dharmas (worlds or realities).

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EMPTINESS is absolute STILLNESS.

 

Viberation (sound) creates planes below it.

 

Void is absolute stillness.  Emptiness is Void with infinite potential. This infinite potential or desire to "be" and grow is what gives birth to all that exists.

 

Vibration is the manifestation of that "potential".

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As we have discussed earlier in this thread, there are different types (or layers) of emptiness.  The Lankavatara Sutra describes seven. The highest being the emptiness of ultimate reality ( or in your system, the emptiness of level 1). Arhatship is not described in the Heart Sutra. The Heart Sutra only describes the emptiness of ultimate reality.

 

For discussion, I think it is easiest to simplify things down into the buddhist concept of two-fold emptiness.  The first is "emptiness of self" and it is this realization that is associated with being an Arhat. It is also the same as the realization of the first half of the Heart Sutra.

 

A buddha fully realizes emptiness of ultimate reality. And with that realization can create or define new dharmas (worlds or realities).

 

ultimate reality ( or in your system, the emptiness of level 1). Arhatship is not described in the Heart Sutra. The Heart Sutra only describes the emptiness of ultimate reality.

 

For discussion, I think it is easiest to simplify things down into the buddhist concept of two-fold emptiness.  The first is "emptiness of self" and it is this realization that is associated with being an Arhat. It is also the same as the realization of the first half of the Heart Sutra.

 

A buddha fully realizes emptiness of ultimate reality. And with that realization can create or define new dharmas (worlds or realities).

 

 

 

 

 

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Then maybe we should move on to chapter 5 and the discussion of the mind system...

"Then Mahamati said to the Blessed One: Pray tell us, Blessed One, what is meant by mind (citta)?

The Blessed One replied: All things of this world, be they seemingly good or bad, faulty or faultless, effect-producing or not effect-producing, receptive or non-receptive, may be divided into two classes: evil out-flowings and the non out-flowing good. The five grasping elements that make up the aggregates of personality, namely, form, sensation, perception, discrimination, and consciousness, and that are imagined to be good and bad, have their rise in the habit-energy of the mind-system,- they are the evil out-flowings of life. The spiritual attainments and the joys of the Samadhis and the fruitage of the Samapatis that come the wise throgh their self-realisation of Noble Wisdom and that culminate in their return and participation in the relations of the triple world are called the non out-flowing good."

What are these "evil out-flowings"?

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Emptiness inflows in us and gives us life.

 

Life sends out outflows.

Outflows are of two types. 

Good outflows as they return back to us.

Bad outflows as they disintegrate to lower level with less time of survival and face extinction.

 

Good Outflows are those that are the basic TRUTH or WISDOMS.

These good outflows rain back on us along with emptiness and hence are non out-flowings.

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Thank you Riju. Here is how buddha goes on to describe it...

The mind-system which is the source of the evil out-flowings consists of the five sense-organs and their accompanying sense-minds (vijnanas) all of which are unified in the discriminating-mind (manovijnana). There is an unending succesion of sense-concepts flowing into this discriminating or thinking-mind which combines them and discriminates them and passes judgement upon them as to their goodness or badness. Then follows aversion to or desire for them and attachment and deed; thus the entire system moves on continuously and closely bound together. But it fails to see and understand that what it sees and discriminates and grasps is only a manifestation of its own activity and has no other basis, and so the mind goes on erroneously perceiving and discriminating differences of forms and qualities, not remaining still even for a minute.

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Also, for those who are interested in what is meant by the "universal mind" or buddhamind...

Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: Pray tell us, Blessed One, about Universal Mind and its relation to the lower mind-system?

The Blessed One replied: The sense-minds and their centralised discriminating-mind are related to the external world which is a manifestation of itself and is given over to pervceiving, discriminating, and grasping its maya-like appearances. Universal Mind (Alaya-vijnana) transncends all individuation and limits. Universal Mind is thoroughly pure in its essential nature, subsisting unchanged and free from faults of impermanence, undisturbed by egoism, unruffled by distinctions, desires and aversions. Universal Mind is like a great ocean, its surface rufflled by waves and surges but its depths remaining forever unmoved. In itself it is devoid of personality and all that belongs to it, but by reason of the defilments upon its face it is like an actor a plays a variety of parts, among which a mutual fuctioning takes place and the mind-system arises. The principle of intellection becomes divided and mind, the fuctions of mind, the evil out-flowings of mind, take on individuation. The sevenfold gradation of mind appears: namely, intuitive self-realisation, thinking-desiring-discriminating, seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, and all their interactions and reactions take their rise.

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Thank you Riju. Here is how buddha goes on to describe it...

"The mind-system which is the source of the evil out-flowings consists of the five sense-organs and their accompanying sense-minds (vijnanas) all of which are unified in the discriminating-mind (manovijnana). There is an unending succesion of sense-concepts flowing into this discriminating or thinking-mind which combines them and discriminates them and passes judgement upon them as to their goodness or badness. Then follows aversion to or desire for them and attachment and deed; thus the entire system moves on continuously and closely bound together. But it fails to see and understand that what it sees and discriminates and grasps is only a manifestation of its own activity and has no other basis, and so the mind goes on erroneously perceiving and discriminating differences of forms and qualities, not remaining still even for a minute."

After consciousness enters an indivitual, senses comein.

 

Our mind ego then starts discriminating what the senses receive.

A vicious circle starts from then on.

Repeated discriminations of same type causes desires and habits.

And then these desires and habits chain us down by increasing their strength. 

This starts aversions and attachments which are lifelong.

These further cause diseases and ill health and pain and sufferings.

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Also, for those who are interested in what is meant by the "universal mind" or buddhamind...

"Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: Pray tell us, Blessed One, about Universal Mind and its relation to the lower mind-system?

The Blessed One replied: The sense-minds and their centralised discriminating-mind are related to the external world which is a manifestation of itself and is given over to pervceiving, discriminating, and grasping its maya-like appearances. Universal Mind (Alaya-vijnana) transncends all individuation and limits. Universal Mind is thoroughly pure in its essential nature, subsisting unchanged and free from faults of impermanence, undisturbed by egoism, unruffled by distinctions, desires and aversions. Universal Mind is like a great ocean, its surface rufflled by waves and surges but its depths remaining forever unmoved. In itself it is devoid of personality and all that belongs to it, but by reason of the defilments upon its face it is like an actor a plays a variety of parts, among which a mutual fuctioning takes place and the mind-system arises. The principle of intellection becomes divided and mind, the fuctions of mind, the evil out-flowings of mind, take on individuation. The sevenfold gradation of mind appears: namely, intuitive self-realisation, thinking-desiring-discriminating, seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, and all their interactions and reactions take their rise."

 

Universal Mind....   A buddha when he jumps the time and space, it deposits the WISDOM which he was carrying as UNIVERSAL MIND.

                               This UNIVERSAL MIND is now ever lasting as it has jumped the time and space., All the  EMPTINESS that flows down from

                                zero plane , keeps it ETERNALLY full and effective and powerful.

                                 It is like a sea. And it is a law for the EXISTENCE for ever.

Indivitual Mind........Our minds are puny, weak. Even the  minds of Gods or Bhoddisattvas are not eternal. They are like sea waves which will never

                                effect the peace and rest of sea depth. Further this mind has seven gradations.  The highest ;being intutive self realised  mind. 

                                (one can even grade it as the mind of gods or bhoddisattva }.

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Hi Riju,

 

Sounds very similar to what always describe as it being a stable bubble in emptiness.  I would just add that future buddhas can expand beyond and "overwrite" or "add to" components of it.

 

What are the seven graduations that you describe above?

 

Best,

Jeff

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lankavatra sutra above describes the seven minds above as part of INDIVITUAL MIND.namely....(read above)

 

UNIVERSAL MIND also can be described .

 

1.Universal mind......Buddha mind......Wisdom mind.......It is the cream or gist of all the minds that work in lower planes.

2. Inituitive mind......When a lower mind receives the power of Universal mind ,,, example is in case of Riju....Riju had received

                                      Lotus sutra mind as inituitive mind.

3. Self realisation mind....A mind inituilllay realises its source of existence. This leads to devotion and love for the source.

4. Logic mind..........Based on complete or incomplete facts one's ,mind reaches a logical decision. This mind can also mislead.

5. Discreaminating mind.......This mind is the cause of painful physical existence of misery, diseases, death etc,

6. Emotion  mind............This mind is based on emotions and is often the cause of serious trouble in life

7..Memory mind.......It stores the past memories. 

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Thank you Riju for the overview and descriptions.

Now moving on...

"Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: Pray tell us, Blessed One, what is meant by the cessation of the mind-system?"

Any thoughts about the meaning of this question? Particularly at the level of senses and percieving.

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  • 1 year later...

By cessation of mind-system he could be talking about learning not to differentiate between anything

or getting attached to things. Attachment and aversion create duality but when you step past it, there

doesn't seem to be any difference between anything. That it was always non-dual. At the level of sense

I'm not sure what to  say specifically about it, maybe don't be a "if I can't see it I won't believe it" guy :) 

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