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Doug

Israel & Palestine - Is Peace Possible?

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As of this writing, the Israeli military  is a bit more than a week into a series of military attacks on Palestinians, which it refers to as Operation Protective Edge.

 

We've all seen quite a bit of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians before, but this situation seems to have polarized public opinion even more, and largely against the Israelis. The reason for this seems to be that there's much more public awareness, thanks to images and reports, of the horrific deaths of unarmed Palestinians.

 

Many people blame the Israelis, while others blame the Palestinians, or the Arabs, or, most ludicrously of all, the Muslims, or the Jews.

 

I'd say it’s much simpler than that: at essence, this is all about people. Human beings, living, and dying horribly.

 

When we see people as people, solutions become much clearer. Saying that it's acceptable that they are killed because they started it is easy to do, because they are not people, but, rather, just an imaginary concept in someone's mind.

 

None but the most sociopathic feel truly cold when they see that children and unarmed civilians are being maimed and killed. However, when those civilians, those actual people, those dads and moms and little kids, can be thought of as them, this triggers divisive memory-based concepts of the kind that have had humans killing one another for as long as there have been humans.

 

And so, what to do?

 

First and foremost, I would suggest that creating an environment where it is possible for communication to take place is key. Dr. Marshall Rosenberg, the founder of the Non-Violent Communication system, has done quite a bit of this work already -- including in Israel, and inside the Palestinian Authority (Gaza and the West Bank).

 

This communication must work both ways - Israelis and Palestinians must both become willing. The good news, is that the vast majority of people on both sides of the Wall do seem to be willing.

 

Second, I would say that steps need to be taken to drive forward a two-state solution based on Israel's pre-1967 borders.

 

I'm not suggesting this because of any specific wisdom that I have, but because it's something that close to 75% of both Israelis and Palestinians have said that they support. When Palestine becomes a nation, Palestinians have what they are fighting for - a national home, and Israelis have what they are fighting for - lasting peace.

 

It is only the most radical elements on both sides - Hamas, among Palestinians and the Netanyahu administration leading the current government of Israel - that seem to always find a way to move farther away, rather than closer to, such an agreement.

 

Third, I would suggest that all applicable social pressure be brought to bear to make clear to the Israeli government that killing large numbers of unarmed civilians of all ages is not "defending Israel", but, rather, it is simply murdering people -- and it does nothing at all to increase the security of Israel, as the Netanyahu administration fantasizes.

 

As a case in point, the last time the Israeli military killed large numbers of unarmed Palestinian civilians was just a couple of years ago - and here we are, today, in mid-2014, with the current death toll among Palestinians being close to 200, mostly unarmed civilians, dozens of whom were children, and the Israeli death toll being 1 (an adult man).

 

There is a lot of good information on the BDS (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) movement online, regarding how many people, ranging from individual citizens of various countries, to religious and spiritual groups, to companies, and finally, to governments (i.e. the European Union, and members of its parliament) are using this peaceful means of economic protest to make clear to Israel that it feels certain aspects of Israel's military actions and policies toward the Palestinians are neither ethical or acceptable. 

 

Fourth, I feel it's an important conversation to have, because it's a case in point regarding how an expanded perspective can be utilized to help create pragmatic real-world solutions - and, ultimately, a more conscious, more peaceful world.

 

My statements above aren't intended to be definitive -- they're simply intended to be the start of a conversation.

 

It is also not my intent to come across as "anti-Israel": I'm not. I simply see some of the decisions of the leaders of the Israeli government as being dysfunctionally reactive, and directly opposed to their stated goals of peace. There are certainly individuals with equally (or more) problematic attitudes among the leaders of Hamas.

 

However, again, the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians want peace, and maybe those of us who experiment with pragmatic applications of conscious perspective can help somehow.

 

Comments?

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Hey Doug,

 

I have seen a lot about all of this, anyone who keeps up with news has no choice really. The problem is that there are also many conflicting views of this situation. For example I noticed when you said this:

"We've all seen quite a bit of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians before, but this situation seems to have polarized public opinion even more, and largely against the Israelis."

I was confused at first because I have read, heard and seen the opposite!

 

I am using this to illustrate that the largest problem we face in forming opinions on the situation is that we are being fire-hosed with propaganda from all media sources, politicians, governments and religious leaders. There is no getting to the heart of the matter because of the fog of attempted influence on all sides. To me it matters not which news service you agree with, it is still propaganda! Everything is hyped and I have noticed many situations have spun out of control because of the exposure to the endless amounts of hype.

 

That having been said, I must say I seriously doubt we shall ever see peace between two peoples who are so deeply mired in dogma that all they see and hear is distorted by their extreme cultures. I hope that peace shall eventually be won, but I fear that the only way to do this is to remove the suffocating dogmas involved. Each party wants to destroy the other because their dogmas disagree, they cannot move past this because their dogmas are so very extreme. It is very sad, but it is also a real deep lesson in not following or encouraging dogmas to exist or have influence upon our behavior.

 

I feel for the people, but these are also a set of cultures bent upon mutual destruction and the people are not rising up and saying "Enough!" for they are also so deeply convinced that their particular dogma is the only way, the only good path, the only thing that should ever exist. Drowning in violent dogma, they are drowning as people. They must develop the Will to stop, look at things outside their books and accept that others have a right to exist as well. Unfortunately I feel both dogmas are guilty of blinding their own people and using them as meat puppets to destroy others who have differing dogmas.

 

Perhaps this is a harsh assessment of the situation, perhaps my words are too much on the outside as I never was raised in any of the dogmas of religion (my family were not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or any other faith or dogma) and thus they all feel quite alien to me, inhuman, even cruel. In my mind the real solution is for the people on both sides to stop supporting the dogmatic thinking and refuse to participate in the violence or even get in the way of the violence. They must do this themselves or face being swallowed by yet another dogma.

 

If you try to rally a militia and no one musters, you shall not have war.

If people stand firm in the face of intimidation, there can be no control.

Without the ability to rally or intimidate, there is no effective dogma.

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Humans are worse than sheep because unlike sheep humans have an intellect but choose not to suffer the small small sufferings and allow them to become big sufferings  we all agree to this by not disagreeing, which only leads to more suffering, as long as the majority are not suffering too much they will permit themselves to be treated and governed any way a small governing body with an armed cadre decides.

 

Politics is all about controlling the largest number of people by the smallest number possible who derive the greatest personal benefit by doing so.

 

This is a simple fact of history and current times as well. This continues until it gets bad enough and then there are massive revolts or revolution, China historically abuses it's citizenry until there are massive uprising, Russia Historically the same.

 

But there is no enduring solution this way because it just starts all over again with a different set of actors, sometimes even the same ones but they remain behind the scenes.

 

Then as generations of Humans are born and conditions remain poor or even become worse it just becomes an expected way of life.

 

Everyone wants to live with the least amount of discomfort and draw that next breath. Leaders know this. People will suffer nearly anything to get to that next breath without taking responsibility for getting it.

 

There has only been one person in all of recent recoded history who comes to mind as actually being the exception to this rule and one country but this is not quite the same as this country was under rule of foreign occupation which is drastically different compared to ones own sovereign nation and its neighbors warring incessantly.

 

That person was Mohandus Karamchand Gandhi.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi

 

Ghandi is an example of how to get change but applied over and over again the people will learn to govern and the leadership will govern wisely to everyones benefit. India failed to do this in the long run, but succeeded in part.

 

From his example  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noncooperation_movement it can be seen his methods work and I submit applying it to the situation of Israel and their neighbors can work also.

 

If the majority on all sides truly want peace then they must all sue for peace at the same time take responsibility for themselves and stop relying on their politicians and leaders to do it for them as it will never happen.

 

The reason it will never happen is this majority on both sides that are purported to want peace in fact wants to not be discomforted by violent conflict and that is two very different things. Even then they do not want even that bad enough to bring an end to i,  they want it without taking responsibility for their own existence in the region and do not take action.

 

Underscore this as long as the people of these nations leave the responsibility up to their leaders they will continue to experience more of the same this is not hard to understand.

 

To believe otherwise reminds me of the definition of insanity which is to do the same thing the same way over and over and expect a different result.

 

The solution is not difficult all soldiers and civilians simply follow Gandhis example take a seat and refuse to do anything even as the example of Gandhi and India and then you will have peace over there and not before.

 

Then when the leaders feel it and it hurts bad enough where it really counts which is their posh way of living, you will get change and not before.

 

This not doing will be extraordinarily difficult, people would be tortured, maimed and die, maybe even killed wholesale but that is what is happening already.

 

Overturning Governments and leaders never, ever works people taking responsibility for their own governing within the frame work of their existing Government and leadership can work but only if the small minority doing the governing feel the sting of the ones being governed displeasure by the act of non cooperation, because until this is done the ones governing will be more than happy to accept what the ones being governed will accept.

 

So when you boil it all down it is the people fault for permitting atrocity as they have sent a clear message to the leadership and that is we will tolerate it and take it so keep doing things this way.

 

Sorry but after hearing about this unending brutality and stupidity over there a life time there is no sympathy for either party. There no longer is any reason good enough to justify continued generational warfare.

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Oh very well said Experientialknowing!

Sadly I have to come to the same conclusion you have for the same reasons.

It is so easy for people to put their responsibility and fate into the hands of others. So easy to adopt dogma and never have to think again!

Yes, the solution must come from the people themselves to the point that their "leadership" get uncomfortable (if not outright removed), but for me this is not quite enough, the dogmatic thinking that led to this situation must be removed as well! That is the main reason I feel this conflict in that region shall never end, they can change leaders all they want, they can have revolutions every day, if the main set of dogmatic rules still apply there will be violence.

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Quite so WoodDragon any Dogma that leads to what these people have is an outwardly visible out on the world stage unavoidably, unmistakable example of how not to be and how not to do. 

 

May we all accept these suffering ones as our teachers of how not to be, how not to do. The solution like the problem is in the individuals minds and no-where else.

 

We may not always know what right is or the correct thing to do but we always know what is wrong and incorrect deep down inside and any dogma that conflicts with that is unworthy of attention let alone honoring.

 

If an action of correct doing can not be determined or done then the action of not doing is still an action and may be the only alternative left.

 

Not to do is still doing some---thing and as human beings we all have no choice we are always doing something even if it is not doing. I learned this from reading books on Zen by Suzuki and applied it to my life 8 years ago I quit smoking a negative and destructive addicted behavior.

 

I did not do it by telling myself oh I should not smoke, no one can not do any---thing. Giving the command to not smoke is issuing a order that can never be fulfilled.

 

How does on NOT --- Smoke. Hey you over there here is a cigarette and a lighter show me how to not smoke go on. :)  See impossible. One can smoke but one can never not smoke. One can fire a rifle but one can never not fire a rifle.

 

This will cause a conflict in the mind, instead If I thought about a cigarette, or felt addictions demand I thought not to do. I felt not to do.

 

Then the mind had a better activity to preoccupy itself with the activity of not doing. Not to do. I gave it a clear easy to follow straight foreword command and it did what I ordered... not doing.

 

If I wanted to supply a reason I could but doing so focuses on the problem rather than the solution and encouraged the destructive activity to grow.

 

Not to do instead was a positive way to do and like two cars can not occupy the same parking spot at once.

 

Not to do is still doing some----thing. In the case of Dogma of any kind, Dogma is Always Not To Do.

 

Why is Dogma not to do one might ask?

 

My answer would be because it is the act of the individual giving up responsibility for their presence on this earth and removing the inconvenience the minor suffering of responsibility for their actions nay their very existence in favor of a set of ideas and emotions of how things should be rather than how they are, which is always in motion always changing. 

 

The fellow in front of the bullet is having quite a different experience of the bullet than the one who fired it, which would you rather be?? Were I asked this I would reply I choose the third option, I choose to be neither one.

 

Dogma always relies on the shooter and the one being shot.

 

That which we are is always changing that which never remains still and unchanging so there really is no choice.

 

Dogma is always static by its very nature and therefore is not for us as a species to allow ourselves to be taken control of by rather it is an idea of how things may be but it is static and therefore fails in the reality of us which are that which is always changing.  

 

Take communism for example it fails because it brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator of poverty in favor of an elite ruling class which of course is not true communism but what has been on the world theatre and labelled as such.

 

For Communism to work it has to rely on bringing everyone up to the highest common denominator where all are afforded luxury and resources equally at the highest level but that requires people not overpopulating the planet due to limited resources and that of course takes a little thing called responsibility again. 

 

See a common theme?

 

If we are addicted and enjoying our Dogma yet it is destructive then the cure is Not To do. This is not the same as saying change without supplying something else to occupy the vacuum created by removing Dogma.

 

Leaving a vaccuum leads to a relapse. Not doing is very active and filling. By not doing obstructions are cleared and what to do is left, to be done. So you do, and soon it is done.

 

When I was a child there were something like 3.5 Billion Humans on Earth, now I believe it is over 7 billion. We were told even then this is not sustainable, then I heard the stories of China, India and Africa and saw how overpopulation had made human life worth very little and how everyone was unhappy, you know little things like starvation will do that to a people .

 

This made a big impression on me as a child. So I took responcibility and made sure that even though I played and swung ahem my bat it never resulted in an unwanted child or another addition to the horror of overpopulation.

 

Not to do does not require justification, wrong doing,  always requires justification which becomes.... guess what? 

 

DOGMA.

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Hi WoodDragon & Experientialknowing,

 

Thanks very much for your replies.

 

While I agree that dogma is a problem, especially within the most extreme factions among both Israelis and Palestinians, I would say that for the most part, this is a "good old fashioned" territorial dispute that's as old as human nature. Dogma just serves to stoke certain people's emotions, on both sides of the conflict (and beyond the "both sides" - many conservative Christian Americans support Israel unilaterally and completely, because their dogma guides them to do so).

 

Which brings me to what I feel is an important point in all this:

 

Every society I've ever seen, whether delineated politically, religiously, geographically, or by any other standard, spans a spectrum from conservative to liberal ... from closed-minded to open-minded.

 

This seems to be every bit as true of Israelis and Palestinians as it does of ever other group of people in the world. And, as is often the case, it is the dogma-afflicted, concept-bound conservatives who are perpetrating the perpetuation of the conflict on everyone else involved.

 

There are liberal Palestinians and Israelis who are working together for peace -- at the same time as the conservative factions are perpetuating senseless, conflict-exacerbating slaughter. Most people on both sides are just regular people, trying to have good lives. The fact of this is indicated by the fact that almost 3 in 4 people (72%) among both Israelis and Palestinians, favor a cessation of hostilities, and a two-state solution, per my original post.

 

I do agree that where the problems are worst, that dogma is the source of those problems - but it's not all religious dogma - some of it is simply territorial / political -- "My family lived here for centuries, you have no right to make me move!" (Palestinians) or "Our whole people were almost slaughtered by Hitler, we need a homeland where we can be safe!" (Israelis)

 

Now, obviously, Israelis took that particular location on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean because of a combination of religious dogma and the backing of superpowers -- but the "cornered animal" reaction we see from the Israelis ... the staggeringly disproportionate violence against Palestinian civilians, has its source, more than anything, I'm (strongly) guessing -- in the fact that Jews were mistreated, exiled, executed and almost exterminated -- and not that terribly long ago. Biological human nature says "this land is mine now, I have a home, and no one is taking it from me, ever!"

 

That very visceral attitude, along with $3 billion annually in military aid from the United States .... has the Israelis very solidly entrenched.

 

Palestinians, on the other hand, not only lived in that area from time immemorial, but lived side-by-side with Jews, without too much trouble - until some Jews, backed by Britain and the U.S., said "this particular land is only ours, now". And so, many Palestinians were forced from their homes -- and, much as with, say, Native Americans when Europeans showed up and decided they liked the place ... weren't too inclined to take their displacement lying down.

 

And, even with all that -- 72% of Israelis and Palestinians both say: "Okay, a two state solution, based on Israel's pre-1967 borders, is fine with all of us."

 

But extremist Israelis feel that on top of the original land they took in 1947, that they should keep the land they took in the war in 1967, as well.

 

Extremist Palestinians feel that Israel has no right to exist ... in much the same way that if China annexed California, and gave it a spiffy, religious name ... many Americans might still feel that this new Chinese country had no right to exist ... even if the Chinese had an ancient, sacred book that said it did.

 

And so - point being:

 

The reasonable people are actually in the majority on this ... and they're supported by the majority of people everywhere in the world, from their respective co-religionists, to the United Nations, to most people, in general.

 

I agree with EK that Gandhi is the model - along with Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela. Non-violent resistance has great power (far more power than the force of violence) -- if it's applied completely and permanently. If enough people - Palestinian and Israeli, and people everywhere who support peace -- then peace is possible.

 

It's ultimately a decision (the unwavering decision for peace, and the non-violent resistance to bring peace about - however long it takes). That's where the power comes from - it's a matter of will.

 

Here's hoping the enough Israelis and Palestinians, and enough of the rest of us, realize this, and act accordingly. A very interesting world awaits, if we do so.

 

Gandhi famously said "Three hundred million Indians can't be controlled by a hundred thousand British unless those Indians are willing to be controlled."

 

Likewise, millions of Israelis and Palestinians can't be controlled by the conservatives and extremists on both sides of their conflict, unless they're willing to be controlled.

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Good points and as a general rule I do agree with a lot of it. However be careful, I have known more closed minded Liberals than I care to think about. I have also known many open minded Conservatives. We live in a media ruled time that deeply, politically wants us to see it all in terms of Liberal and Conservative. This is a dogmatic construct as Liberalism and Conservatism are also both dogmatic constructs which are currently in conflict over money, property and power. I have met so many Liberals who absolutely refuse to see any point of view save their own and attempt to remove the ability of anyone to hear arguments other than their own. Does this sound open minded? No, of course not. Any dogma is a danger to peace as it promotes "us vs. them" types of thinking. Dogma is what keeps the population under the thumb of a handful of aristocrats or colonial masters. Dogma blinds the populace from what is really going on and let's them support any horrible action on the part of their leaders. Liberalism and Conservatism are both simply two of many masks dogma likes to wear in order to keep the sheep in line for harvesting. As long as Israel and the Muslim states cling to their dogmas there will be bloodshed for the sake of their leader's power and prosperity bought with the lives of innocents in the name of a meaningless dogmatic mask.

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First of all thanks Carson that was quite the education so thank you but it could be argued it is a  publication slanted towards the Palestinians.  I strongly disagree with your assertion that the solution presented is a(n actually) viable solution.

 

It is very obvious the Israelis will not stop until they have completely taken over. It is completely obvious other Nations will continue backing them, it is also obvious that the government of the United States will continue to do as it is doing and has been doing for decades now.

 

One thing that was made very clear in that cartoon is that the Israelis will continue to develop the land and it appears they are the only ones whom have ever really done so, with desalinization plants to supply potable water to support a population of any size.

 

The United States will continue to aid the Israelis as they are a vested interest in the region due to petroleum and other resources, eventually the Palestinians will cease to exist or leave.

 

Let me spell out in no uncertain terms how it is going to go based on what I saw in that cartoon. The Israelis will end up in charge of all the land and that will be that. In fact it is a wonder based on what was represented in that cartoon, that the Israelis have not exterminated the Palestinians and believe it or not as horrible as this sounds the Palestinians can probably thank Adolph Hitler for that.

 

​So here is my revised opinion the Israeli people will not adopt Gandhi's Methods because it is not in their best interest to do so, and the Israelis have made the Palestinians irrelevant so they can sit around all they want as the Israelis could care less they simply appear to have been made irrelevant to the operation of the Israelis interests.

 

It appears the U.N. and the U.S. have a vested interest in Keeping the Israelis in charge in that region as a horse in the race so to speak so now they need to correct the mistake their intentional meddling has created and aid the Palestinians by giving them some luggage, and a place to go where they can become citizens of another country, bottom lining it the world is getting too small for petty Nation States, but that will not happen because other nations are supplying the Palestinians with armament, in the end the entire middle east will be losers of an epic proportion when petroleum is no longer needed as all other nations have been keeping them stirred up over there on purpose for many reasons all stemming from petroleum. That hornets nest will never know a time when some other Nation is not poking it with a stick for the sake of resources. That is until they are all gone or the need no longer exists.

Edited by Experientialknowing

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Thank you Carson! Very interesting indeed.

One thing I gotta say however, I do not expect anything from International "leaders"! When have they done anything but throw money at problems? When have they taken risks for world peace? When have we the people been able to pressure them when most world "leaders" do not come from democracies and could not care less about our opinion as long as they get their power and riches? I suspect many world "leaders" are making boatloads of money off this very conflict! From what I see here, so many of the world's "leadership" are hyping up, aggravating and creating conflicts more than solving anything. No my dear friend, we cannot rely upon the sensitivities of world "leaders". 

 

I do have another question for everyone. We have been talking on this topic of Middle East peace and I see that every time someone lobs a grenade at someone, or shoots at someone in the Middle East it gets into the news pretty quick and outcry is almost instantaneous. But how about the nations of Africa? What about the daily (yes folks, daily!) massacres and invasions all through the African nations. Do you hear about those more than 3 times a year? Maybe? Do we see constant efforts, "heroic" efforts to stop the violence and warfare in Africa? No, we do not. About 60% of the African continent (!!!) is at war or slaughtering each other and the rest of the world yawns.

 

If you think it is about the Middle East having more resources, think again, there is oil, diamonds, uranium and more in Africa. The world just does not give a damn about the people of Africa unless it involves large Muslim organizations or is close to the Middle East (like Egypt). Africa has been the bullied child of the world for centuries and the rest of us will someday pay for that oversight. When you really look at what is going on in the world on a daily basis (and not just what popular news says) we find hypocrisy so thick you could use it as bunker insulation.

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Guest Experientialknowing

Wow you know when thought about Africa really is a mess. I wonder why they do not get the same press time?

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Thank you Carson! Very interesting indeed.

One thing I gotta say however, I do not expect anything from International "leaders"! When have they done anything but throw money at problems? When have they taken risks for world peace? When have we the people been able to pressure them when most world "leaders" do not come from democracies and could not care less about our opinion as long as they get their power and riches? I suspect many world "leaders" are making boatloads of money off this very conflict! From what I see here, so many of the world's "leadership" are hyping up, aggravating and creating conflicts more than solving anything. No my dear friend, we cannot rely upon the sensitivities of world "leaders". 

 

I do have another question for everyone. We have been talking on this topic of Middle East peace and I see that every time someone lobs a grenade at someone, or shoots at someone in the Middle East it gets into the news pretty quick and outcry is almost instantaneous. But how about the nations of Africa? What about the daily (yes folks, daily!) massacres and invasions all through the African nations. Do you hear about those more than 3 times a year? Maybe? Do we see constant efforts, "heroic" efforts to stop the violence and warfare in Africa? No, we do not. About 60% of the African continent (!!!) is at war or slaughtering each other and the rest of the world yawns.

 

If you think it is about the Middle East having more resources, think again, there is oil, diamonds, uranium and more in Africa. The world just does not give a damn about the people of Africa unless it involves large Muslim organizations or is close to the Middle East (like Egypt). Africa has been the bullied child of the world for centuries and the rest of us will someday pay for that oversight. When you really look at what is going on in the world on a daily basis (and not just what popular news says) we find hypocrisy so thick you could use it as bunker insulation.

 

Hi WoodDragon,

 

You make some very good points here. World leadership is driven by what it perceives as its own best interests (i.e. for "my nation", "my company", and so on, and so forth). Just yet one more way for learned concepts to get in the way of living - often in problematic and lethal ways, to various degrees -- up to and including the trashing of the planet. (i.e. "'Global What-ing?' - No, that can't be real, because it could negatively impact quarterly earnings! Imagine the shareholder reaction!")

 

Likewise, most people and most locations around the world have not been of interest to the wealthiest nations except as a means to greater wealth. Much of Africa doesn't carry that immediate possibility, and so, not much attention is paid to it.

 

Israel is somewhat different, because we (the U.S.) bought the team ($121 billion in military aid since 1948, $3 billion annually in military aid currently, $1.5 billion annually paid to Egypt so that they don't attack Israel; nearly $1 billion spent in co-development of the Iron Dome, and so on an so forth).

 

I don't think we (Americans) understood, originally at least, that all those weapons we paid for and provided would be used to kill, subjugate and imprison the unarmed people who already live there. Yet, for some (completely non) mysterious reason -- U.S. politicians from both parties support Israel (and its atrocities) without reservation. Why?

 

One word (or, rather, acronym) -- AIPAC. The Israeli lobby in the U.S. considers U.S. funding essential to Israel's survival (and it might well be correct about that) -- and so, nothing -- no facts, no ethics, no politicians, will ever be allowed to turn against Israel, and be allowed to proceed without suppression and opposition from AIPAC.

 

Like other people, organizations and dynamics that thrive on darkness (deceit, manipulation, etc.), Israel's current atrocities against Palestinian civilians and AIPAC's machinations are, indeed, being answered by the more conscious among us.

 

And spin aside, recognizing and expressing all this doesn't make anyone anti-Israel or anti-Jewish .... but rather, just anti-darkness.

 

And yes, of course, this applies to Africans, Central Americans, Palestinians - all people everywhere.

 

This is because human worth is inherent, and the disparities in perception concerning human worth (for anyone who perceives such) are the result of learned concepts -- and have nothing at all to do with the actual humans in question.

 

Strangely, I sense an opening beginning -- toward a recognition of all humans as equally worthy, inherently whole -- as us.

 

There is no "them" ... what a ludicrous thought.

 

There are only conceptual labels about "them".

 

And, thankfully, all this crazy conflict and contrast around the world is coming into the light, and ending the idea of "them".

 

Consider: all the social media coming out of Gaza currently; it has the people of the world recognizing Palestinians as people. A lot of people have been okay with "the Palestinians" being killed ... but hardly anyone can be okay with moms, dads and cute little kids being killed -- and social media makes it impossible to deny the truth of the people.

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This is because human worth is inherent, and the disparities in perception concerning human worth (for anyone who perceives such) are the result of learned concepts -- and have nothing at all to do with the actual humans in question.

 

This is now becoming a discussion of the humanities and so here is some more on that.

 

Thank you Doug that was most revealing but the single most important thing I read and would like to ad too it is this is; in order to maintian the value of human worth the single most important thing everyone neads to activly participate in is self control or their desire to reproduce.

 

Overpopluation is the leading cause of Human worth being devaluated.

 

Even though married I and my wife have activly prevented births from taking place. No not abortion but self control and containment measures later followed by voluntary surgeries.

 

The same is true of my two brothers and their wives.

 

So to those of you with Children I say you are welcome, may they enjoy the resources we have intentionaly left on the table and available for them by not hording them for our genetic spawn out of some misguided belief indoctrinated into the organism by a reproductive intinct that has overpowered it's current place in history.

 

My only wish is that you and they have the common sense to practice self control and insure those who are yet to come have the same material available to them we did so they do not know suffering as is rampent in Africa due to uncontrolled reproductive behavior in areas ridden with disease and lack of resources least your own back yard become an Africa of your own making.

Edited by Experientialknowing

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The only "atrocity" I see is that All sides commit violence in the name of meaningless dogma.

No sides are innocent. No leader can be trusted  save to serve themselves at our expense.

 

The media is attempting to control the conversation by applying "sides" such as Liberal support for Palestinians (who commit violence in the name of dogma) and the Conservatives support Israel (who commits violence in the name of dogma) which to my mind means that the media is committing an act of violence in the name of dogma. (sarcasm on) Oh yes, let us pick sides and bet on a winner based on our fictional books of nonsense that tell us who is and isn't going to "heaven" (sarcasm off).

 

If we here on this online community are looking for peace and Truth, we cannot choose sides. We dare not choose dogmatic thinking which clouds our minds with garbage in order to make us compliant for those who would feed on us all. Personally I do not care what a person's politics are, if you are being political then you are part of the problem and supporting your "side's" version of violent dogma. The media is rampant with politics. Any government (which is pure politics) is a form of self centered crowd control.

 

The violent and bloody history of the human race can all be tied to dogmas (religious, political, cultural) which are used to enrich the few with the resources of the many.

And we keep letting it happen because we obviously seem to Want to believe in our little untruthful dogmas.

 

What is happening in the Middle East between Israel and Palestinians (who archaeologically were Not the first people in that region, the first settlers of that area were slaughtered in a genocidal pogrom) is also what is happening in Africa, Asia, South America, Mexico and Central America, the gangs of our cities, the violence in our homes and the terrible encouragement of violent lies in our churches, temples, synagogues, covens and especially, most especially in all our governments to whom we bow and show our throats to in abject obedience.

 

The media and our supposed leaders tell us and we close our eyes and obey.

That is the unfortunate state of the human condition today and all through time.

As long as we follow and obey we all have blood on our hands.

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If we here on this online community are looking for peace and Truth, we cannot choose sides. We dare not choose dogmatic thinking which clouds our minds with garbage in order to make us compliant for those who would feed on us all. 

 

Thank you, WoodDragon - clearly and powerfully stated, and I agree wholeheartedly.

 

Unhealthy and harmful behavior is observable. Murdering people due solely to conceptual bias against them is still murder, regardless of any defining labels which might apply to those people (i.e. Israeli, Palestinian, etc.).

 

You made a very key point as well when you wrote "if you are being political then you are part of the problem". Exactly so - because, "being political" in this context refers to just yet one more iteration of being lost in concepts - or, if you prefer: dogma - which is the very essence of the issue here.

 

Without these conflicting, definition-based arbitrary concepts motivating both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict currently taking place in Gaza -- there would be no conflict.

 

Without dogma, we're just dealing with millions of human beings who want the opportunity to live their lives in all the ways that make humans happy, and which never includes being suddenly killed, maimed or at minimum horrifically shocked and terrified by enemy bombs.

 

None of this, contrary to mass delusion, including among many Americans, is about the arbitrary, highly-variable concepts of "good and bad", or "right and wrong" -- it's solely about what can work over the long term, for as many people living in Israel and the occupied territories (Gaza and the West Bank) as possible (and, of course - by extension, everyone - but those people, specifically, per this discussion).

 

In fact, I seem to recall that there was a rabbi in that part of the world a while back who famously said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

 

That might be a good place to start.

 

Which can only happen if enough people with involvement and influence in this overall situation are willing to let go of focus on (and from) dogma, and instead focus on maintaining an open enough perspective to seek what can actually work, and that which is fair to all involved (because they are, of course, the same thing).

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We've talked a bit about the fact that this isn't about Israelis or Palestinians ... but about people. The people on both sides of nearly any conflict tend to view "them" through the distortion of conceptual labels -- forgetting that the people designated by those labels are living, breathing humans - just as they are. And, just like they are, they are filled with hopes and dreams, joy and grief .... sadness ... and happiness.

 

 

What kind of society could slaughter hundreds of people like those shown in the video above?

 

Strangely .... very, very strangely .... this kind of society:

 

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Guest Experientialknowing

Oh but I disagree, we have not forgotten it is they committing atrocity after atrocity against one another who is forgetting have forgotten that the people designated by those labels are living, breathing humans - just as they are. And, just like they are, they are filled with hopes and dreams, joy and grief .... sadness ... and happiness.

 

Just what are they supposed to look like anyway?  This? 

know-your-giant-monsters-king-kong-13071

 

Or maybe this?

 

know-your-giant-monsters-godzilla-130711

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Very nice Experiential Knowing! We have such odd expectations, all of which are based on labels, the tool of dogma.

There is so much talk of "these people are like this" which leads to stereotypes and archetypes, broad brush thinking which leads to dogmatic thinking.

People are people, all people have a full palette of emotions, needs, dreams, desires, expectations and cultural conditioning.

Why do we expect a society to be a certain way because it would fit our interior dialog? Especially as we see other nations, cultures and societies from the outside!

We are not them, they are not us yet we feel justified to judge them from an alien perspective. We find it strange when a society does not fit our expectations.

If they are not monsters, we are confused.

 

As for the poignant question asked as to what kind of society slaughters hundreds of people like those shown in the video, I do have a response:

The same kind of society that slaughters thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands and even millions of people just like those found in Both videos.

Shall we look at the dogma driven cultures that did these things? Nazi Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao's China, the current regimes in Sudan, Libya, Bolivia, Nigeria, French Algiers, Custer's attempted genocide of Native Americans (sponsored by the USA). Can we look at the wars in Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, WWI, WWII, the USA Civil War, the Roman Empire, the Golden Horde, Alexander, the Crusades, the Hundred Years War, the War of the Roses, the Cartels of Central and South America, the Mafia, the Inquisition, the Muslim invasion of India, the European Age of Colonization and more, so much more.

What kind of society does this and yet can be happy, be carefree, loving, creative and even accepting? All of them apparently. All of us.

 

In the face of that list written above, what scale are the atrocities being committed in comparison? I am Not justifying anything, I do not like violence. What is happening on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is appalling and a disgrace to humanity, however if we are going to do comparisons, how many people have the other "side" slaughtered as well ( instead of focusing on one side, which smacks of politics)? How many people were killed by Cartels and the Mafia today? If you guess hundreds, you guessed wrong, try thousands. Any media time on that? No? How many slaughtered children were there in Nigeria this month? No one knows, no one is reporting on it, no one talks about it until an American, European or Asian is also killed. Then we get numbers like "thousands" all of a sudden. Where is the outrage? Where are the journalists? Oh, that's right, they are too busy reporting on things that fit neatly into their little dogmas. We are being brainwashed by media and politics. We allow it. We expect it. We pay them to do it to us.

 

I will say this, as a general pattern (there are always exceptions in human behavior and experience) I have noticed a trend that the more blindly a society embraces any form of dogma (religious, political, economic, cultural), the more likely that such a society will not even bat an eye at killing hundreds, thousands and millions of others in the name of that blinding dogma. The less dogmatic a culture is, the less likely it will prey on others but the more likely others will prey upon them.

 

Peace starts when dogma is questioned, authority held accountable, hearts overrule ego, expectations are dismissed, desire and greed is kept in check (if not ignored), censorship is replaced by acceptance and independent enlightenment is encouraged. Peace starts when arrogance and fear ends. Most of all peace starts from within the individual. Does this paragraph sound like any nation found today? There is the rub, if any nation, culture or sect decides to go with dogma instead of enlightenment (and let us face it, if you are a nation, culture or sect you are already in a dogma) then peace remains a chimera because those who differ from that dogma  must be on their guard lest they are seen as threat to that dogma or the dogma in question is used to steal resources for the dogma's leadership and then the "outsiders" (the aliens, the infidels, the unbelievers, the imperialists, the commies, etc.) need to defend themselves. This is one of the many ways in which dogma spreads. It is a disease of humanity.

 

The cure to the disease of dogma? Self Inquiry, Detachment, Humility, Acceptance.

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Very nice Experiential Knowing! We have such odd expectations, all of which are based on labels, the tool of dogma.

There is so much talk of "these people are like this" which leads to stereotypes and archetypes, broad brush thinking which leads to dogmatic thinking.

People are people, all people have a full palette of emotions, needs, dreams, desires, expectations and cultural conditioning.

Why do we expect a society to be a certain way because it would fit our interior dialog? Especially as we see other nations, cultures and societies from the outside!

We are not them, they are not us yet we feel justified to judge them from an alien perspective. We find it strange when a society does not fit our expectations.

If they are not monsters, we are confused.

 

As for the poignant question asked as to what kind of society slaughters hundreds of people like those shown in the video, I do have a response:

The same kind of society that slaughters thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands and even millions of people just like those found in Both videos.

Shall we look at the dogma driven cultures that did these things? Nazi Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao's China, the current regimes in Sudan, Libya, Bolivia, Nigeria, French Algiers, Custer's attempted genocide of Native Americans (sponsored by the USA). Can we look at the wars in Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, WWI, WWII, the USA Civil War, the Roman Empire, the Golden Horde, Alexander, the Crusades, the Hundred Years War, the War of the Roses, the Cartels of Central and South America, the Mafia, the Inquisition, the Muslim invasion of India, the European Age of Colonization and more, so much more.

What kind of society does this and yet can be happy, be carefree, loving, creative and even accepting? All of them apparently. All of us.

 

In the face of that list written above, what scale are the atrocities being committed in comparison? I am Not justifying anything, I do not like violence. What is happening on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is appalling and a disgrace to humanity, however if we are going to do comparisons, how many people have the other "side" slaughtered as well ( instead of focusing on one side, which smacks of politics)? How many people were killed by Cartels and the Mafia today? If you guess hundreds, you guessed wrong, try thousands. Any media time on that? No? How many slaughtered children were there in Nigeria this month? No one knows, no one is reporting on it, no one talks about it until an American, European or Asian is also killed. Then we get numbers like "thousands" all of a sudden. Where is the outrage? Where are the journalists? Oh, that's right, they are too busy reporting on things that fit neatly into their little dogmas. We are being brainwashed by media and politics. We allow it. We expect it. We pay them to do it to us.

 

I will say this, as a general pattern (there are always exceptions in human behavior and experience) I have noticed a trend that the more blindly a society embraces any form of dogma (religious, political, economic, cultural), the more likely that such a society will not even bat an eye at killing hundreds, thousands and millions of others in the name of that blinding dogma. The less dogmatic a culture is, the less likely it will prey on others but the more likely others will prey upon them.

 

Peace starts when dogma is questioned, authority held accountable, hearts overrule ego, expectations are dismissed, desire and greed is kept in check (if not ignored), censorship is replaced by acceptance and independent enlightenment is encouraged. Peace starts when arrogance and fear ends. Most of all peace starts from within the individual. Does this paragraph sound like any nation found today? There is the rub, if any nation, culture or sect decides to go with dogma instead of enlightenment (and let us face it, if you are a nation, culture or sect you are already in a dogma) then peace remains a chimera because those who differ from that dogma  must be on their guard lest they are seen as threat to that dogma or the dogma in question is used to steal resources for the dogma's leadership and then the "outsiders" (the aliens, the infidels, the unbelievers, the imperialists, the commies, etc.) need to defend themselves. This is one of the many ways in which dogma spreads. It is a disease of humanity.

 

The cure to the disease of dogma? Self Inquiry, Detachment, Humility, Acceptance.

 

Yes.

 

Thank You.

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