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kevincann

The Darker Side Of Spirituality

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Now --- I'm not saying that this is true.. I'm not saying that this is my perception...

but I will tell you that a shamanic perspective is far less 'rainbows and puppy dog tails'

sort of perspective than nearly all new age type thinking.. where everyone is 'god',

is on the track to evolve into pure consciousness and what not.

 

In the Shaman's world, there is little or not black or white.. but lots of gray.. just like

in the 'real world'. In 'our world' humans as a whole are arguably the most evil thing

to ever happen to the Earth.. we are causing the end of all life on the planet.. it's

well under way.. and it's called the anthropocen or holocene extinction:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1525/abt.2011.73.2.5

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121101-a-looming-mass-extinction

http://anthropoceneblog.wordpress.com/2013/05/27/the-sixth-extinction

http://www.bitsofscience.org/sixth-mass-extinction-1058/

 

And oh did I mention? The Ocean is dying.. and since the ocean is the very

root of the life-cycle on earth.. and generates like 40% of our oxygen.. when

it dies.. we die soon enough..

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/04/1243700/-The-Oceans-are-Dying-Oxygen-is-Depleting-Acidity-Rising-at-Fastest-Rate-in-300-000-000-Years

http://www.naturalnews.com/043380_fukushima_radiation_ocean_life.html#

http://www.uga.edu/gm/1202/FeatDeep.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-reese-halter/oceans-report-card-novemb_b_4293935.html

 

Killing all life is just one of man's hobbies.. and these are just two ways that man is doing that.

 

Now why do I bring this up?

 

Just like man is truly a monster of epic proportions.. but who doesn't feel that way in his own

eyes.. there are numerous spiritual people who note that 'as below so above' .. who see far

more than unicorns flying us to cosmic mind so that we can live forever as 'gods'.

 

There are many other valid ways to view things.. other than 'all is one' ! Well, if all is one.. and

all these spiritual luminaries are so 'one' then why don't they feel the Earth dying and maybe

care about that a little? Being 'one' seems pretty fragging selfish and self-centered to me.

 

There are in fact, very credible theories about life the universe and everything, which states

that humans are indeed food animals.. that they are being kept all 'buzzed' on 'oneness' to

keep them weak and foolish.. whether that 'oneness' be spiritual, religious.. or the unity

of being football nuts who can think of nothing else, while the world dies.

 

Now do I think this is the case? That doesn't matter..

 

Any honest person will entertain alternate theories other than the one they currently favor,

investigate it, and keep an open mind.

 

If all 'our' 'spirituality' can do is keep us in a coma of non-action.. (like often happens to

people who stop suffering very much... heck, they can't even write down what happened

to them, so others can benefit.. let alone actually do something real and worthwhile).

 

The possibility that humans are being 'played' is certainly just as possible (possibly more

since we all know the world is a grim place) as humans are made of cosmic pixie dust

and all of us have a wonderful future where we merge with infinity...

 

The cow is content in his feed lot.. munching on grain.. playing with the other cows..

and does not see the real world, until the real world takes his life.

 

Now.. again.. do I see things this way? Again.. that's not the point of this post..

I DO have a pretty exact view based upon much observation and data... and

I suggest that we, one and all, develop an observation-rich view, not based upon

fantasy wish fulfillment.. and then maybe we can earn some fancy titles of spiritual

accomplishment.. and not just take the default position, of 'co-destroyers of the Earth'.

 

Happy Monday!

 

Kev

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Hi Kev,

 

Interesting post. I agree strongly with your statement "I suggest that we, one and all, develop an observation-rich view, not based upon

fantasy wish fulfillment" - which is the key to utilizing spirituality (aka unbinding consciousness) effectively, in my opinion.

 

There are lots and lots and lots of ways to waste mental energy - including thought-emotion-based concern (aka conditioned concern) for the "state of the world" - because such concern is, if you'll notice -- just one more set of conditioned concepts.

 

Better to do the one thing we each can do, I'd say, which is to unbind our own consciousness (from its seemingly-bound state), including learning to troubleshoot energy-wasting conditioning, as it arises.

 

Proceeding in this way, we find (based on my own experience, and numerous reports I've heard, read and discussed) that we become more clearly present in more and more moments - and from that place of relaxed clarity, we're more in touch with the intuition that can guide us in any specific direction, including the direction of working toward specifically creating a healthier world (if that's one of the things we're drawn to do).

 

I agree fully that shamanistic / indigenous traditions tend to be a lot closer to the Earth than those of us in more fragmented (aka "modern") societies - and that we can learn from that.

 

Oneness isn't a concept - it's just the condition of what is; ask any competent quantum physicist.

 

For instance, Erwin Schrodinger, one of the founding scientists of quantum physics, said:

 

"Consciousness is singular, all happenings are played out in one universal consciousness and there is no multiplicity of selves."

 

LIkewise, the idea that humans are somehow "separate" from the Earth we're collectively poisoning is just an unfortunate bit of potentially species-extinguishing fantasy.

 

Realizing our oneness with all is the key, because from that place of simple reality, we're far more likely to live in healthy, creative ways.

 

And for that, nothing at all matters except how conscious we are -- how truly open (aka scientific, aka observation-based) our perspective is, in any given moment now --- which is where that observation-rich view comes into play --- on an ongoing basis.

 

Thanks,

 

Doug

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Doug-

Oneness isn't a concOneness isn't a concept - it's just the condition of what is; ask any competent quantum physicist.

s just the condition of what is; ask any competent quantum physicist.

Actually quantum mechanics is actually just as 'flaky' as spirituality is..maybe more so...from a certain perspective.

Also the draping mysticism on top of quantum mechanics really annoys physicists. Most of them derisively call that

"Quantum Mysticism'. Also for the record Erin was a known fan of eastern mysticism.

From what I know about physics..and I worked as a nuclear engineer in charge of 160 men....

physics does not particularly support the oneness concept in any meaningful way....far far from it.

If you look at the history of the evolution of philosophy..from animistic. To dualistic to non dualistic

It's plain to see why Advaita. Formed to solve some philosophical quandries..it is the dealing with such quandries

which pretty much explain all fancy concepts....not because someone stuck their head out a window one day and perceived

oneness one day.

Now since I understand the interface between apparent duplicity and apparent oneness (at least it's my opinion that i do)

I have no problem with "oneness" and actual oneness without awareness being present.. so it does interest me to discuss it...

but in fact the 'oneness' perceived or thought to be bedrock is not in fact anything like spiritual types want it to be in my observation at least.

Now discounting my view. ..you still need to take into account biology neurology and various flavors of physics and all of those are quite in opposition to nearly all 'oneness models'.

Reality is chunky (quantized.....discrete bundles....that's what quantum physics means)...full of weird geometric shapes (calabi yau spaces) and in NO WAY human friendly....or friendly to human escapist thinking.

And sometimes when Rome is burning it's not a metaphor or a spiritual exercise to see past conditioning...

it's some thing real....more real than any philosophical system;

Better bring a bucket not a religious text.

Imho

Kev

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Hi Kev,

 

I didn't make the quantum physics comparison lightly. I'm well aware of what the "quantum" refers to, as well. The fact of the matter (literally) remains, though: the standard model of quantum physics posits a field with stuff oscillating within it.

 

Some highly-qualified theorists consider it quite likely that the oscillations are oscillations of the field itself (see: quantum cosmology, quantum gravity, quantum geometry, string theory, m-theory, etc.)

 

I wasn't attempting to spiritually "graft" quantum physics on to spirituality as some people do. I was saying that from the perspective of the quantum realm, and extended to the macro-atomic world as well - as verified by Schrodinger's famous and foundational equations, and the related discipline of quantum wave mechanics - that it's the multiplicity, not the oneness, that's the obvious concept.

 

That's because - and I'm pretty sure you'll have to agree on this - that from the view of the quantum perspective (i.e. the sub-atomic, with the planck length as the fundamental marker of time-distance) ---- non-oneness is impossible to find.

 

The simple, actual observable oneness of reality was my point.

 

"Better bring a bucket not a religious text."

 

I concur. Unbinding consciousness in reality-based ways leads to fantasy-averse, reality-harmonious views and actions. Which is pretty much the entire point. If it doesn't play well in the real world, it's pointless and quite possibly counter-productive.

 

Thanks again,

 

Doug

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Doug-

 

Well I like your conclusion.

 

'Spirituality' is in fact a wretched word for anyone who wishes to live a genuine life.. it has all this unreal baggage associated with it.

 

Now as to the "problem with oneness" and quantum mechanics.. well there's more to it than just that.. science hasn't been able to

unify quantum mechanics with the standard model.. with general relativity or with even the 3 dimensions of space.

 

You say that everything is one... sure.. I happen to concur..

 

Hierarchically one..

 

When you walk into a wall, refusing to believe in it.. you get a bump on your head...

 

and this doesn't mean that 'maya' has overcome your ability to experience 'oneness'.

 

This means that oneness doesn't fall on it's belly and let you scratch it.. just because you have

an unsubstantiated theory that you should be able to do so.

 

I in fact find that sensation of absolute oneness.. where all matter becomes transparent or

dissapears completely.. where time falls away.. where everything becomes orgasmic..

not conducive to a useful life. Been there, done that, got the T- shirt --- not impressed.

 

One in fact senses many echo's ... like in a giant holographic bee hive.. in a certain state..

and how would you or I or anyone else KNOW that one is not 'trapped' in just one of those

cells? That an infinite number of them.. with higher holographic integrity don't in fact

exist?

 

You can't know..

 

And all the self-deifying pseudo-rational-spiritual garbage concepts put together can't

give you the certainty that you have broken past even ONE such barrier.

 

Just cause you now experience 'oneness' or 'beyond' don't mean you got the key to

the executive bathroom.

 

I tell anyone who wants to have 'cosmic consciousness' --- perhaps you should aim lower..

you might not actually enjoy learning your actual place in ;'reality'.

 

;-)

 

Thanks for participating Doug.

 

Kev

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Doug-

 

Well I like your conclusion.

 

'Spirituality' is in fact a wretched word for anyone who wishes to live a genuine life.. it has all this unreal baggage associated with it.

 

Now as to the "problem with oneness" and quantum mechanics.. well there's more to it than just that.. science hasn't been able to

unify quantum mechanics with the standard model.. with general relativity or with even the 3 dimensions of space.

 

You say that everything is one... sure.. I happen to concur..

 

Hierarchically one..

 

When you walk into a wall, refusing to believe in it.. you get a bump on your head...

 

and this doesn't mean that 'maya' has overcome your ability to experience 'oneness'.

 

This means that oneness doesn't fall on it's belly and let you scratch it.. just because you have

an unsubstantiated theory that you should be able to do so.

 

I in fact find that sensation of absolute oneness.. where all matter becomes transparent or

dissapears completely.. where time falls away.. where everything becomes orgasmic..

not conducive to a useful life. Been there, done that, got the T- shirt --- not impressed.

 

One in fact senses many echo's ... like in a giant holographic bee hive.. in a certain state..

and how would you or I or anyone else KNOW that one is not 'trapped' in just one of those

cells? That an infinite number of them.. with higher holographic integrity don't in fact

exist?

 

You can't know..

 

And all the self-deifying pseudo-rational-spiritual garbage concepts put together can't

give you the certainty that you have broken past even ONE such barrier.

 

Just cause you now experience 'oneness' or 'beyond' don't mean you got the key to

the executive bathroom.

 

I tell anyone who wants to have 'cosmic consciousness' --- perhaps you should aim lower..

you might not actually enjoy learning your actual place in ;'reality'.

 

;-)

 

Thanks for participating Doug.

 

Kev

 

Hey Kev,

 

Thank you - good discussion - and, I agree --- mostly.

 

The only part where I disagree is: while I too have "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" -- I found that the direct experience that there's a lot more to reality and to consciousness than senses and thinking-mind can observe and demonstrate -- to be very useful. It helped me to remain open to the ramifications of this reality, which in turn helped me to open to deeper levels of consciousness that can actually be productive (i.e. to creative intuition, which most people seem to experience intermittently, and essentially by chance).

 

I agree fully though, that the idea of opening to "cosmic consciousness" or whatever, as an end goal is pointless other than (for some) as a motivation to have the experience in the first place, or, as in my case described above, as an orientation to the full range of consciousness, and a clearer understanding of the aspects comprising various levels of consciousness.

 

The result of all that, though, in my experience is very simple - what I like to call "wholeness", or what could be referred to as simple, integrated balance.

 

Conditioning has most of us living in a suffering-filled world based on the distortions of a lifetime of conditioning. The maelstrom of conflicting thoughts and emotions seems to be "all there is" - and the very best tool we seem to have (without the incorporation of the experience of deeper states of consciousness in any way) is reason - more thinking - which, observable, seems very ill-suited to helping anyone find a healthier way to live, psychologically.

 

Basically, attention is conditioned to focus on mental-emotional reactions, and to use this as an arbiter for reality. Reality, not being aware of any of this, tends not to play along. Hence, suffering.

 

The result is, most humans walk around as figurative software programs, designed to serve up ongoing unhappiness, with a bit of relative happiness at other times.

 

Which is why I like the simple statement from Jed McKenna "Enlightenment is the unprogrammed state."

 

Transcending limited mind in experience simply serves as reorientation. When I first experienced the deepest levels of consciousness, it felt like quite the big deal in comparison to anything else I had ever experienced. The reality, and real accessibility, of complete freedom and peace - of, well, corny-but-true: consciousness unbound -- felt like both massive release and relief.

 

However, I also realized fairly quickly - human beings aren't designed to live in such a state - and ultimately, there's a balanced center of consciousness / experience that sits just a bit back from immersion in the forms of conditioning, the realizing of which is the point of the whole exercise. 

 

It's kind of like if we lived our whole lives with the treble dialed too far - and we thought that "treble world" was all that existed. Via practices and observation, we experience that there's this whole treble-bass range that we never even knew existed. We also realize that just because "treble world" contained so much suffering, that twisting the knob all the way to "ultimate bass consciousness", and leaving it there, is not any kind of an answer, either. Any "answer" seems to be right about in the middle, it seems.

 

The so-called sages that most of us here seem to respect reflect this reality well, I'd say: they say things that are wise yet practical, and they seem pretty normal; they're not off in the existential stratosphere somewhere, with people feeding them and what-not.

 

Another analogy that just popped up (I tend to be a bit of an analogy-generator  :lol: ) - being sedentary isn't ideal, and engenders suffering in various ways. Becoming more active can help, and becoming really active can help a lot -- but just because being sedentary is relatively bad, it doesn't mean that never ceasing to move is relatively good -- again: balance:

 

Finally, I think quantum physics makes for some interesting metaphors -- especially since it brings home the point that knowing exactly what everything is doesn't necessarily matter -- but what does matter, pragmatically, is what you can do with what you've learned.

 

For instance, there's a direct line from the work of Planck, Rutherford, Bohr, Einstein, Schrodinger, Pauli, Heisenberg, etc. -- to this conversation.

 

Roughly a century ago, the existence of the atom, and then the electron, was discovered.

 

Before too many years had elapsed, discovery of the electron and related experimentation led to implementation of a new set of technologies, based directly on the discoveries of quantum physics, called electron-ics.

 

Thanks to electronics, we enjoy all modern technology, including this Internet thing.

 

My point?

 

I see "spirituality", aka, experiential consciousness expansion and balancing, in the exact same way:

 

We don't need to define everything that is -- we need to understand how aspects relate to one another, in ways that can be used for healthier living, individually and collectively.

 

Hence this overall conversation (at this forum, and everywhere else such conversations are taking place).

 

Thanks again for participating too, Kev -- your contributions are welcome, and very interesting, largely because they address the things we're discussing here from angles that most people don't consider, or aren't willing to express.

 

Doug

Edited by Doug
Minor edits for emphasis and clarity

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Doug-

 

"However, I also realized fairly quickly - human beings aren't designed to live in such a state"

 

This IMHO is the single most welcome thing you have every posted in my point of view.

 

I've known dozens (hundreds probably) of people who have sought to go on a perpetual spiritual 'drug trip'; in fact I think it's fair to say,

that THAT seems to be the goal of much 'new age Buddhism'.. much 'new age Yoga' etc. It's not that the original material is ALL THAT

terribly off base (though that can be  really true in critical areas like with 'maya'.) but the focus has become to 'escape the human

condition' by 'teleporting into eternity' ... 'ascending'... 'resting in the unconditioned mind' whatever you want to call it... it becomes

a drug trip to avoid living a relatively normal human life. (sure walk on water if you really must.. and you know how.. but who gives

a rip really? Take a boat for goodness sakes).

 

Here's the concept that SO many people seem to miss --- probably the single most important concept that has ever dawned on me-

 

It's not OUR JOB to 'be this' or 'be  that' or 'be the ground of awareness' .. those jobs are ALREADY TAKEN.. it's OUR JOB TO
BE US.

 

That's our job.. not to be a 'Buddha' or a 'Christ' or a 'Master' -- those jobs for the most part ARE the MAYA.. NOT THE GOAL;

as those people as we fantasize about them... never existed like the fantasies say... and even if they did.. that was THEIR

JOB -- not ours.

 

The 'world' wants Doug and Kevin to be in it.. I mean, we are here, right? IF all the Doug's and Kevin's try to be someone

else all the time.. then how does 'the world' 'scratch the itch' of ALSO wanting to be Doug and Kevin? Someone has to

wash the dishes.. and that be US. For now anyway.

 

'Cosmic Awareness' is like a 'pointer'... it only needs to point to 'one thing once'... sure... it's possibly to crash OTHER

PEOPLES PARTIES.. by 'merging with them' so to speak..... but that's not SUPPOSED to be a PERMANENT or necessarily

DESIRABLE thing.

 

We are supposed to be US. Sure we can play at being other people.. or at being 'one with the substrate'.. but we are

just playing... that's not actually a desirable state of necessity... THERE IS NO NEED FOR SPIRITUAL 'EVOLUTION'

all the jobs are already filled!

 

Once you realize this.. you become free from the vast majority of ego-filled spiritual posturing and BS.

 

IMHO.

 

If I never say anything else.. if nobody every hears anything else I ever say.. THIS particular response is the one

I'd wish people to understand... the most important thing I could ever say.

 

IMHO

 

Kev
 

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